Doodling Beyond the Margins with Ashton Rodenhiser

Rich Bennett: [00:00:00] Ashton Rodenheiser is a visual storyteller and founder of Minds Eye Creative Consulting. With over seven years of experience, she transformed complex ideas into visual narratives, aiding in information retention and inspiring others to adopt visual techniques. Having worked with diverse groups from non profits to Fortune 500 companies, Ashton has brought to life over 2, 500 presentations.

Rich Bennett: Beyond her professional realm, she cherishes family moments in rural Canada. God, I got to get up there one of these days. I'm going to get up there. So, so join us to explore doodling as a business and sketch noting, which I'd never heard of. So how are you doing Ashton? I am 

Ashton Rodenhiser: doing so well. How are you doing today?

Rich Bennett: I'm doing good. Yeah. When you contacted me and I looked at, I'm like, What the hell is [00:01:00] sketchnoting? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Who is this girl up in Canada and what the heck is she doing? Pretty much. I had 

Rich Bennett: no idea. And then when you said, then I read further, it's like doodling as a, it's like, what? What in the world is she talking?

Rich Bennett: And not drawing, but 

Ashton Rodenhiser: doodling. Yeah, yeah. So, 

Rich Bennett: actually before we get into all that. Something I always like to find out from my guest. Uh, because I'm sure, I'm sure when you went to school, this was not your career path. Yeah. Um, now I don't know how it is in Canada, but here, when kids go to high school, they want you to set a career path.

Rich Bennett: Of course, they're pushing college and all that, and probably 90 percent of them don't follow that career path even after college. Right. So when you were going to school, what was your dream? What was it that you wanted to be? Or do when you got out of school? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. So when, [00:02:00] so when I was, so I knew I wasn't going to be a scientist.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I knew that. Okay. I wasn't really into the sciences and the maths. I was more into like the Englishes and the history and social studies and things like that. So I knew it was probably going to be something along those lines. Right. So I, in grade 10 here, it's grade 10, 11, then 12, you're done. In grade 10, I kind of took everything and all the advanced classes just in case.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And then after I kind of realized, yeah, I'm not going to do all these science y things, I dropped out of those. And I Focused more on, on the Englishes and took journalism class and all these things. So I, by the time grade 12 happened, I, I still didn't know what I wanted to do. When I grew up, I thought, I thought maybe a teacher, I don't know.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And my parents didn't set aside money for me. You know, we weren't like. Poor, but we weren't rich really, I guess. Right. Like lower middle class, I would say. Mm-hmm. . And so I knew I'd have to get loans. I'd have, I worked like almost [00:03:00] 40 hour weeks while going to high school. I was like, what? Yeah, I was wild.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Wild. I like every evening, every weekend I was working at, I don't, do they have a and W in the States? Did he a W root beer. Yes, I worked, I worked the most ugliest uniforms and like, sorry, I still love you, but like brown and orange day. I don't wear orange and brown well. Goodness gracious. 

Rich Bennett: Oh, I miss them.

Rich Bennett: We don't, I haven't seen them either. Okay. Well, we're used to, I haven't seen them in a while. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Okay. We'll come up cause we got lots of them. Anyways. Um, so I, I really, I really struggled and, and, you know, I was saved money and, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I didn't want to go to university and take a career path that I didn't know what to do.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So, and I didn't want to do something just for the sake of going to university. So, um, Well, everybody, I remember sitting with people and they are [00:04:00] talking, Oh, I'm going to do this and that. And I said, I just want to be a mom. And everyone was like, wow. I know. I was like, I think I actually would have been a very happy teenage pregnancy.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like I would have actually would have been a good time. I think. I'm not promoting teenage pregnancy or people being like 18, 19 years old and thinking to myself, if I had a baby right now, I would be happy as a clam. I'd be so, and I had a boyfriend started dating when we were, I was 17 and I'm still with him and I'm 36.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I knew we were going to be together. So I was like, if we have a baby, that'd be cool. I gotta have a baby. So I didn't have a baby until I was 26. I did wait a while. Um, so that's the path I decided to go for education. I went to college, it was a two year diploma. I was like, I'll go and take early childhood education and then I can like work with kids and families and do that.

Ashton Rodenhiser: [00:05:00] And I knew, I knew going into it, it was unlikely it was going to be my career. It was like a whole, like it was a transferable skill. So I could look after other people's kids until I had my own. And then I figured I would know how to raise them correctly, which is like a load of bull just saying, because you know better, that's the worst thing, like, I know I'm yelling at you and I know better, so.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Anyways, it, it has served me from, from time to time, of course. And there, I have three, three little humans now that I, that I have multiplied out of myself. So

Rich Bennett: how many girls? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Two girl, boy, girl, boy in the middle. Poor buddy, poor buddy. Um, it's four, five, five, seven, and 10. Five, seven, and 10. So I had them all within five years. Girls are the hardest 

Rich Bennett: to raise too, aren't they? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I don't know. So far so good. They still like me. Uh, so I'm just, I'm going to take it day by day.

Ashton Rodenhiser: They're, they're awesome little people and I, they're amazing. And I know as my 10 [00:06:00] year old is approaching, you know, teenage years, I'm getting nervous. I'm getting nervous. I'm seeing a lot of, um, you know, that, that vibe that sort of talking back with some of her friends and I'm like, don't you do that to me?

Ashton Rodenhiser: So she's, she's a sweet as pie, but we'll see. We'll see how it all. I was 

Rich Bennett: going to say, and I bet, I bet her. Their father's probably like I was with my daughter trying to find a convent for him. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: He's a, he's a jokester. If he had, if he had, uh, if he was more of an extrovert, he would be a standup comedian, hands down.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Okay. Laugh all day long. We're, we're laughing. We're a weird family. We are very strange over here. Oh, that's okay. They're called 

Rich Bennett: dad jokes. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. So, um, so I went into the working world. I thought at one point I was going to be a sign language interpreter. I took all the, yeah, I took all the prerequisites to get into it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Took night classes for six months. I had to move to the city to do that. [00:07:00] So when I moved to the city, I was like, I need a job. So I got a job at a family center. So I worked there for a number of years, but my last few years there, I transitioned into a role that was available as a facilitator. So it's actually, I was only like 21 years old facilitating parenting programs.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Without my own, I know it's so fun, but when you're a facilitator, it's less about you as the expert, it's more about the people in the room and how they learn and how they engage and how you can create a safe space for people to have difficult conversations and move through problems that they're having.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I really, really, really fell in love with facilitation. And I felt like it was this, you know, interesting segue between maybe wanting to be a teacher. And facilitation because, uh, you don't have to know anything really. You just have to make sure that you not just make sure, but you have to create that safe space for people and ask those questions and be, be there for them in that way and help them move through, um, whatever they're working [00:08:00] through.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I did that for a number of years at that organization. And then when I left that organization and moved back to my hometown and. You know, figured this whole, like, Oh, let's get married and buy a house and have family thing. Um, you know, just that little thing. I just, that whole thing. Um, you know, I know I followed a very traditional path, but it was something that I've been wanting to do in that way.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And. I, I was, I was trying, even though I grew up in this small town, I, when I left, um, when I came back, I had, I'd lost all my connections. I was, I was very angsty as a teenager leaving college. I just hated everybody. So I never really stayed in touch with anybody. My husband and my hairdresser, which I'm getting my,

Ashton Rodenhiser: and, um. So I, I had to build relationships from the ground that moving back to my small town was very strange, strange vibe to be in anyways, I really [00:09:00] started volunteering a lot and met some other facilitators and, um, became friends with one guy and he told me about this one day workshop that was coming up.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And it was around graphic facilitation. And I didn't know what that was. 

Rich Bennett: I was just as what is that? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. Well, I'll finish my story and then I'll get into it. Basically I went to this one day workshop and I was like, this is it. This is my life now. I was, it was as cliche as it sounds. The rest was history.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, I, I had always been very creative. But being an artist was never a path I even considered because of such, such negative rhetoric around it in my, in my community and my family. Like you can't make money as an artist, ha ha. Look at all those kids going to art school and they're going to leave and have no jobs, you know, those, that kind of thing.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So it wasn't, I didn't even consider it because it was so downplayed and I've always been very creative, even though I've never been traditionally taught other than some like music and being in band and I'm learning how to play the bagpipes right now. I am. Yes. I'm learning how to play [00:10:00] bagpipes. It's very hard.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's extremely difficult, but my 10 I are doing it together. And, um, so I, I've always been very creative and like exploring different mediums, as you can hear. Um, and I love this world of facilitation and I found graphic facilitation was the beautiful coming together of this creative world. And this facilitation world.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So, um, graphic facilitation is more in a facilitated session or setting. So you are visualizing the information that's flowing out of a meeting, let's say, or a boardroom or strategic planning session. So instead of just talking heads the whole time, like back and forth, back and forth, I am there when I'm in person, I actually have a giant piece of paper, usually like 4 feet.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Wide by eight feet long or longer, like they've been 25 feet long. And yeah. And as the conversation is happening, I literally have these like big fancy markers and I draw it all out. So they're saying things. So I'm capturing words and I'm synthesizing when I'm listening and I'm capturing those [00:11:00] mean ideas and things that are arising.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And then I'm also. illustrating it in the same breath where I'm creating, you know, putting icons or loops or whatever I'm drawing to help connect those ideas. So my goal is by the end of that meeting, there is a visual representation of that information. And so they can roll up the paper, take it to their office and hang it on the wall.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I also photograph everything so they get a digital version of it. Um, so that's sort of the facilitated type things. And then I also find. Myself in situations that I call graphic recording or live illustration, where, where it's more of a conference, I'm not as engaged in the process. There's not multiple voices contributing to the illustration.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's more like 1. So it'd be like a podcast or DL, or it would be, um, a keynote president, you know, presenter, or even a panel session with just those couple of voices, but still, they're like talking about something, right? So it'd be, so sometimes when I'm doing conferences, I'm creating, you know, [00:12:00] 2, of these graphics in a day.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, either in person or when COVID hit, I moved everything virtual. So I still primarily stay virtual to be, uh, to be frank, but, um, some events I do are hybrid, so they just like take my little zoom drawing screen and they like throw it on a, uh, TV in the room. Which is pretty awesome. So it's like, I'm there, but I'm not saves me a lot of, I, I still love paper, man.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I still love my fancy markers, but I'm not utilizing them as much as I used to. Right. Cause I was a hundred percent in person before COVID and now I'm more like 90, 85 percent um, virtual now. Wow. Yeah. So yeah, and then sketch noting, which you, you mentioned as a, as a thing that you didn't know it existed.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It all uses the same skillset, the listening, the making sense when you're listening and then capturing in words and pictures and sketch noting is a. Um, there was coined by a guy named [00:13:00] Mike Rody, and he wrote the sketched out handbook and, um, the, the concept isn't new. It wasn't new when he kind of put it together, he just sort of called it something that kind of caught on and, um, use the same skillset, but it's more personal for yourself.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So right now I'm more of in a transition in my business where I am going from the live illustrator to the educator. So I guess I maybe have a full circle of wanting to be a teacher, but I'm educating and teaching people on how to use. Drawing is a thinking tool for themselves and Visualize their own thoughts, their ideas, and when they're in meetings, they can draw their own notes.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, if you're, uh, a, uh, like a leader of a team, you can, you can do it in a small, smaller setting or what have you. Or I've been also like teaching teachers on how to teach students in a classroom as a way that they can take notes. So a few different ways, um, currently that I am, I'm kind of teaching it to different groups of people.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, But yeah, [00:14:00] and I wrote a book about it and I spent almost two years writing it. And I released it a couple months ago called the beginner's guide to sketch noting. Um, because it's for people who consider themselves a non artist or someone who doesn't know how to draw, uh, for them where you want to like experience the benefits and the value of visualizing information.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, but there's that. That gap. It's like, well, how do I do that? And, um, I was finding there was a lot of stuff out there that was shown that was like folks like for me. So I've actually been doing this for 10 years, but I started building a business 7 years ago and there's that gap when people look at my work 10 years in, they're like, oh, well, I can't do it because I can't do that.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I'm like, yeah, but. When I show people my first works, they're like, Oh, maybe I can do it. Cause it was so awful. All of my, my skills were not so great in the beginning. Um, so yeah, it's like this, like, yeah, the same skillset kind of just used in a few different ways. [00:15:00] Yeah. And talking about doodling is just.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Fun. Like, you know, I, I kind of call myself a professional doodler. Cause like when you work for yourself, you can call yourself whatever you want. And, uh, definitely makes people like turn their heads. Like, what do you mean? She, but basically like I'm glorified doodler over here. 

Rich Bennett: So this is where I'm getting confused.

Rich Bennett: You do this, you're in business meetings doing this, the, the graphic. Was it 

Ashton Rodenhiser: recording? Yeah. There's so many terms. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett: But what's the difference between C. You doing that and somebody taking regular notes, is it the same thing? Just, you have a visual 

Ashton Rodenhiser: perspective. I guess you could simplify it like that, but when, so there's a few different things and I'm not like a brain science expert when it comes to it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So I'll just speak to what I have learned and experienced over the years. Um, when. If you can imagine, especially in a facilitated type session, let's talk about that for a second. Imagine you're in a, an [00:16:00] environment and you're trying to decide what the vision is of your company for the next three years, someone could be certainly like, you know, making little notes or you could be making your own notes and you're just like writing words and like, that's cool.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like putting pen to paper is awesome. No matter what. Right. What you do. Right. So I'm performing and like, please just write things down because there is like benefit to that over typing notes. So if you can write your notes, that would be amazing. So imagine you're in that, in that meeting and you say something.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And people are like, okay, and then the conversation carries on where you heard, where you like, did people hear what you said? Was it captured? I don't know. Like, I have no idea. And if you see me there drawing what you just said, you can feel heard. You can feel valued. You can feel validated, you know, like in terms of camaraderie in the space and the people in the room, like anecdotally, folks will tell me, you know, like I, this was a.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Productive. This was a great, good use of my time because I felt like I was a part of [00:17:00] something. Whereas a lot of times we go to these meetings, you talk and you talk and you talk that meeting ends, you go to the next meeting and the next meeting, you're like, what did we talk about in the last meeting? I don't know.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like, what would we say? What were the things? But if you have a visual representation, you can carry that conversation on throughout the, to the next meeting or to the next year when you're doing your next planning or whatever. And it becomes like an accountability tool as well as. Not just the engagement in the room and making sure that people feel like they're a part of it, and they can see their ideas unfold and they can clarify and have a deeper understanding.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right. Whereas if somebody says something in a meeting, you don't know, like how things are going to unfold. And maybe I capture something because I heard someone say something and then they see it and they go, wait, wait, that's not what I meant. This is what I mean. You know what I mean? And now you have a shared, now you have a shared understanding of what happened, what was discussed, and then the next part is how do you move that forward?

Ashton Rodenhiser: [00:18:00] You know, because it's, there's the engagement in the space and time, but now you have a visual representation because we live in a, this culture that instant gratification. Right? Like, like do it now. So if you can look at this graphic in less than 30 seconds, it will takes you back to that conversation.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Be like, Oh, right. I remember we told that story and that thing. We have to do this thing. Whereas how many times have you gotten a report and you put it in your file and you never look at it again? Right? Like, I don't know what I was going to do. Crap. Now I got to go back and look through the 10, 15, 50 page report and try to remember what it is that I was supposed to do, because I can't remember, you know?

Ashton Rodenhiser: So, um, when it comes, when it comes to like the space and the people in the room and feeling like they're a part of something and building that cohesion and collective understanding, there's that piece. And then there's the piece of like. Bringing that forward into the world and like, how do we actually like implement these things?

Ashton Rodenhiser: And there's a, like, I think it's, I think the status, something like there's an 89 percent more likelihood of [00:19:00] taking that information and putting into action when you have something in words and pictures. Right. So if you want to get stuff done, it's a nice way to try to help that continue on. And then if you think about it from a conference perspective, let's say you're a big fancy conference and you hired a speaker to come and speak for an hour and you paid them 50, 000 people aren't going to remember what they said because that's the nature of our brains.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So I can't remember the, like I said, I'm not so great on stats, but it's like, you remember so much percent after the day. And then you remember so much percent after the week and you don't remember anything. It's like very, very small percentage of what you actually remember. Right. So I see like a conference might see me as an investment because Here I am not just engaging folks in the room and creating this kind of like fun, cool thing or virtually, but now they have this representation of that speech or that [00:20:00] presentation that now people can reflect on and be like, Oh, right.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I remember all these cool things that he said. Now I might actually apply them to my life. So, you know, of course, like I'm biased, but I'm like every conference and meeting should have something like this because most people learn and most people think in pictures. And most people consider themselves a visual learner, even though technically learning styles have been debunked.

Ashton Rodenhiser: That's neither here nor there. People still relate to, I'm a visual learner is the number one thing that people say to me when they see me in a room, virtually or in person. So, you know, and then there's like the neurodiverse population, right? Can you physically, mentally sit there at that conference for 10 hours listening to 15 presentations?

Ashton Rodenhiser: It is a lot. We expect a lot out of people. And if you cannot physically or mentally sit there, then you missed out and that's not cool. You know? So why don't we [00:21:00] make sure that people didn't miss out on stuff because yeah, maybe they missed the audio part of it, but if they can get the heat, the key at the end of the day, what do they need to know?

Ashton Rodenhiser: The key ideas and the key themes and the key things, you know, maybe they missed this funny story and all of that. We want them to, to not miss it on the learning. Right. So for me, it's about finding and working with clients who care about the learning and the engagement and the support and the accessibility of information rather than like, I'm not the entertainment by any stretch of the matter.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You know, like, yeah, it's cool to see someone drying and like, that's part of it, but it's actually a very small part. So when I'm looking to work for people or work with people. It's about that learning and the folk, the fact that they care about that engagement piece and that deeper of understanding of that information and taking that information into the world and doing something with it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So I'm more of a visual communicator than anything else. So when I get in the opportunity to, like, stand on my soapbox, like, in [00:22:00] chat like this, I have an opportunity to discuss, you know, um. I'm, I'm like a doodler disguised or would it, I'm like a visual communicator disguised as a doodler, right? So you, there's one thing that you see, but then there's all that science and, um, stats and how we think and how we learn stuff hiding behind the scenes.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So it's really about break, helping people break down complexity using a visual language and communicating visually and all the benefits that people can receive by incorporating. Visual and a visual element. And then the real time live aspect is just hella fun. So, yeah. So 

Rich Bennett: I guess in a way too, cause you work with all the businesses, right?

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. Like it's very diverse. I work with like from a tiny little nonprofit to like one of the, some of the top companies in the world. Not tooting my own horn, but yeah, so I 

Rich Bennett: guess you can actually help them put together some[00:23:00] 

Rich Bennett: PowerPoint presentations people love to 

Ashton Rodenhiser: look at don't even get me started about the flipping PowerPoint Come on now, you 

Rich Bennett: know, because, uh, you know, people is speakers always use a PowerPoint and what do they do? They read from that PowerPoint. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: That's why don't get me on brand. 

Rich Bennett: Don't get me on brand.

Rich Bennett: That's what I'm saying, but with something like you do, let's say the speaker brings you in ahead of time. Yeah, it tells you their spiel or whatever and you go ahead and you draw it all out. Yeah. Then would you put it on a PowerPoint presentation for them? Because there's the visual aspect of it. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. So, so oftentimes like a company or a conference will hire me to like come in and just like do all of it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: But sometimes, um, I've encountered and, and had, have built relationships with different speakers over the years where they, they see the investment. So they're like me as a professional speaker, I want you to create, [00:24:00] um, some assets that I can include on a PowerPoint slide. Or here, I'm going to give you a recording, or we're going to hop on a Zoom call, and I'm going to give you my presentation, and you're going to draw it out.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And then at the end, I have the visual for them to then use as like a piece that they can share. So it almost like differentiates themselves as a speaker, because the conference doesn't bring me in, so they're not going to, the attendees aren't going to get it. Sometimes the speakers see the importance of it and not just from a, this is kind of fun and cool and differentiates me as a speaker, but now I have a marketing thing that I follow up with.

Ashton Rodenhiser: They're like, Hey, here's our last slide. Here's a summary of the, um, a visual representation summary of the presentation I just gave. If you'd like a copy, email me and I'll send it to you. And now it's like a marketing. Now you can like. Reach out to potential buyers, potentially like so many different use cases for them.

Ashton Rodenhiser: We could talk about that I'm sure for the whole time, but I'm always surprised in different ways [00:25:00] that people choose to use them in. 

Rich Bennett: Now I have to ask you this. Oh, okay. No, because I have a funny feeling. Your take on it's the same as mine. Um,

Rich Bennett: How can I ask this? Uh oh hell. What all, so what are the kinds of a PowerPoint presentation? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: or the, what are the what? The cons. The cons. The cons. Oh, yes. 

Rich Bennett: Cause I'm sure there's, I, I'm sure there's a lot more cons than there are pros. What is it that you don't like about the PowerPoint presentation? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Oh goodness.

Ashton Rodenhiser: People put too many words on them. They, that's the number one thing, man. Like there's no graphics, there's no visuals. It's just like a solid color. Or like one of those stupid waves and like, you know what I mean? Everyone just uses the same slide style deck that like comes with PowerPoint. Like, oh, this style again.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like, woo, [00:26:00] do, you know, like I did out of the 2, 500 that I've done. And I know the number is way higher because I haven't done my numbers in a few months. Um, I did 600 alone. Right. So I listened to like 600 presentations alone last year alone, just last year. Right. So. It's a lot of presentations to sit through and there are actually very few that stand out.

Ashton Rodenhiser: There are very few that go, I can think to myself, Oh yeah, that was really cool. Oh yeah, that was very cool. Very one that stands out for me is not the PowerPoint presentation, but it was a virtual presentation and he kept cutting in and out. So it was a recorded one, mind you. Okay. Um, And then they played it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So I did it live, but they were, they was pre recorded and every then everybody else was live when they showed it. And every time it would cut back to him, he would be, you know, not super serious, but he, you know, wouldn't be smiling or anything, but something would be different about him. So we'd have like a different hat.

Ashton Rodenhiser: We'd [00:27:00] have a different shirt or one time he's holding a baby. And I, I love, and not to me out of. Out of all of those that I've captured, that one sticks out the most and it had nothing to do with his PowerPoint slide. It was just this like funny list, like you're waiting for like, what's he going to wear next or what?

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like you have funny glasses on. It's keeping you focused on it. The baby killed me. I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever seen. And like, he's just giving the presentation and he just happens to be holding a baby. And he's like, he's not acknowledging that he's changing all these things about him.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right. So I need to go back and find him and tell him I use has some example all the time. I should go and find this guy. Seriously. I was, I don't even know who he is anymore. Um, so yeah, like the most memorable presentations had nothing to do with the PowerPoint slides, I guess, is probably my, my biggest takeaway for, for folks around that.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, Oh, your PowerPoint slides shouldn't tell the whole story. And I think what people try to read from, you shouldn't [00:28:00] be reading from them. It should have like one word and one image or something that makes it stand out. That is, it's supposed to be a support for your voice. Your voice should be 95 percent and the, the PowerPoint should be 5 percent and that 5 percent should stand.

Ashton Rodenhiser: On its own two feet and should be memorable, right? I was, uh, actually had a conversation with someone yesterday, the day before, and, uh, he's a speaker and he told me that he does magic, uh, and his presentations. And I told him, I said, look, dude, I've been doing this a long time. I've seen a lot of speakers and I've never seen anyone do magic before.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And he's like, shocked. And I was like, dude, you're doing something different. Like, just keep doing what you're doing. Because, you know, I know mine, mine probably is. Still like a drop in the bucket when it comes to seeing presentations. But I'm like, if I've been around the block, I'm like, this is basically my job is to like, go to these conferences.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I could be in like five conferences in a week for goodness sake. So, you know, it's, uh, I've never [00:29:00] seen him. I've never seen magic. So I was like, that's cool. You keep doing that because I've never seen it done before. 

Rich Bennett: Yeah. So I. So with you, when you started your business and correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't take like business management or anything in school, right?

Rich Bennett: No. Okay. So walk us through this. You decide that you're going to start a business, right? You're already married. Do you already have kids? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I had one in one on the way when I officially made the decision. Yeah. And when 

Rich Bennett: you came home, you told your husband, you said, Oh God, here it comes. I can tell already because you're laughing.

Rich Bennett: Walk us through that because I know support's a big thing. Support from your spouse is a big thing. And there are some people they decided they wanted to start a business and their spouse was like, you're freaking nuts. It ain't gonna work. Walk us through that when you came home and told him 

Ashton Rodenhiser: my husband's a unique guy.

Ashton Rodenhiser: [00:30:00] He's a really unique character. And I guess that's probably when I was 17. I was like, this guy's a keeper. He started a business at 19 with no business education. Oh, wow. So. And he, he just doesn't think like everybody else. So I think when it was like, Hey, I'm thinking about like starting a business. He's like, cool, that's awesome.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So, and I think he's seen me create things. Like I created an art at night festival and ran it for a couple of years at that point. I started a nonprofit organization. Like, I'm just like, I start, I'm like a starter. I like start things. So I think, I think it's like, you know, maybe if I didn't have that in me and like, I think I was very entrepreneurial.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Throughout my life. I didn't, but I never named it as that. And I didn't think about it in a business. So I like started things, but they weren't like businesses, but they were things in the community. And so it, it, there was a very clear cut, dry, [00:31:00] um, Situation that I was in that I, I'm officially made the leap where, uh, there is an organization for us weirdos that draw these videos.

Ashton Rodenhiser: There is an organization to be, if you could join the weirdo organization. No, it's beautiful. I should, I'm joking. You got me in a mood. You've 

Rich Bennett: got, so there's an organization for people that want to get pregnant during high school, kids. Organization for weirdos that just like to doodle. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: And it was called the international forum for visual practitioners because it sounds fancy.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And because I think in the eighties or nineties, when it started visual practitioner was a term that people commonly used at the time. And even though I've never used it, actually, um, I guess technically I'm a visual practitioner. And, um, I applied to their scholarship program. They give [00:32:00] out three scholarships for their conference every year.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I got, I received one in 2015. So I just had to like find the rest of the money to pay. They paid like for part of the conference fee. So I just had to pay the rest of it and try to get myself down to Texas in July, seven months pregnant. So figured that out. Yeah. And that was in 2015. So I was in that place.

Ashton Rodenhiser: At that time was really crucial because I had been doing it for about two years at that point, kind of here and there playing around, not building really a business around it, but like just playing around and trying to figure out how, like, can I do this and get paid? I don't know, like little jobs here and there, like for very low pay.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And my goal at that conference was I'm going to leave this conference with have made a decision. I want that decision to be, yes, I'm starting a business or no, I'm not starting a business. So there was a lot weighing on that conference and I attended all the business sessions that I could, there was a couple of them and [00:33:00] I, I tried to have, you know, conversations with people who had started businesses because it's kind of your default, like no one's hiring a graphic recorder in a company full time.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So like everybody basically has a business at this conference. So, you know, and I was in the room with some people who had been doing that at that point back in 2015, they had been doing it for over 20 years and had a business for 20 years. So I'm like, okay, 20 years track record, you know, this isn't like something that you start and then it fizzles out.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like they've been doing it for a while. So even though I was completely intimidated, I tried to channel that intimidation into inspiration. And I left that conference and I remember being on the plane on the ride home. And I like made a list of like, I kind of had like a little mini vision board. I'm like, I'm going to work with these clients and this is what I'm going to try to do.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I was like trying to make a little mini business plan for myself at the time. And yeah, and then I had my second kid. And then after he was about six months to a year, that's when I, you know, I still worked a little bit here and there and was trying to build things very slowly at that time. But what he [00:34:00] was about six months to a year when I was like, okay, like.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I'm going to do this. I'm going to really like put all of my energy, all of my time into figuring out how to actually like build a business and, and raise a family on this. So, yeah, 

Rich Bennett: that's awesome. Congratulations to you because A lot of people just decide they're going to jump right into and they don't have a clue, but you were educating yourself.

Rich Bennett: You went to this conference, you're learning everything. Yeah. Uh, and now here it is. You're teaching people. Yeah. Um, and seven months 

Ashton Rodenhiser: pregnant. I know. I'm, I'm, I, I do weird things in my life. I don't even know. I leave it. I even look back and I'm like, I can't believe I did that weird thing. Like. Yeah, you know, and like when my third child, like, Hey, listen to this.

Ashton Rodenhiser: When my third child, when my third child was born, she was a week old and I got on a plane to go and do a job. That's how weird I am. I know [00:35:00] it's ridiculous. I know. I know. Did you take her with you? Yes, of course I had a friend meet me there and she watched her while I drew and would try to feed her on breaks and stuff.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It was a wild time, but I was so determined. I have this insatiable, like personality. Like, I'm just like, I don't know, like hashtag high achiever, plus, plus, plus. So I had worked so hard over those for those years. Like, you know, after he was born, like. 2016, 2017, 2018 and had her in May of 2018 and I, I was.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Gaining success and I was gaining clients and I was like, I'm not stopping this train for a year. Are you kidding me? I'm not taking maternity leave. Like maternity leave wasn't even in my vocabulary. It didn't exist. And I wouldn't, I'm not saying I would recommend this to any of the listeners. Like I am a weirdo for a reason.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So like, I would not recommend to do this. [00:36:00] So do not follow in my footsteps necessarily. But I did not want to slow down the momentum that I had worked so incredibly hard to build. To build my client base. So, you know, I, I don't know if I said no to any jobs that year. Um, and I just kept going and my business grew year after year after year.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So I was, I was busier than I was the year before that, which is the year before that. Um, and then even with the pandemic. You know, I wallowed for two weeks and then I was like, I'm not going to let this little thing, like a worldwide pandemic, slow me down. I just frigging, I hate the word hustle, but I did it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I, and I persevered and I just went nuts and tried to figure out how to move. My a hundred percent in person business to an a hundred percent digital business. Um, honestly, it was like the best thing that ever happened to me. You know, I know people, I have a hard time saying that because I know people really struggled through the pandemic, but it actually was a blessing in disguise.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You know, 

Rich Bennett: you're not the first person to say that [00:37:00] there are a lot of people I've talked to, and it was for me too, that where COVID was a blessing for a lot of them, especially if you're a business business owner, because that's when you saw a lot of business owners. Think outside of the box. Mm-hmm. and decide what can I do to keep going?

Rich Bennett: Um, with all, with your business, all God, they're probably, you probably can't answer this one because well go for it. I'm curious. No, no. I don't think there was, I mean, you took, took a one week old with you and everything, but we starting a business. What was the hardest part? Um, was there a hardest part?

Ashton Rodenhiser: Honestly, it was myself. My, the hardest part, like I could learn all the strategies and all that all day long. Like that's easy, but my, my own, hopefully not self sabotaging myself was the hardest part. So I spent just as much time, if not more on reading books, reading business books, reading [00:38:00] mindset books, reading books about money.

Ashton Rodenhiser: All of like, that's all I have consumed for years and years and still consume it to this day to like an nth degree. And I, I, I would say I worked just as hard, if not harder on my thinking about my success. Then my act at the actual drawing skills, the actual business skills, because I had a very poor mindset when it came to, um, believing in my own success and I had, yeah, I know it's weird.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like, I know you probably, yeah, maybe you're surprised by that, but like I didn't go to university. So the belief I had that was wired in my brain is that I would never make a certain amount. It was 30, 000. I was like, I will never make more than 30, 000 was my belief because around here, that's like a very common income, like 30, 000, 50, you know, not maybe like 15 years [00:39:00] ago, you know, 15 an hour, 30 grand a year.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And it's like, it's all right, you know, for someone who doesn't have a university degree and I did it. And I really was ashamed about that for a long time. So I had a belief that I would never amount, like I would never make more than that much. So I had to work incredibly hard to believe that I could charge, that I was worth achieving it, that I was worth making more.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I was worth making more than 30. I was worth making more than 60. Like every income that I reached, I'd have to like sit down. I'm like, okay, Ashton, can you believe you can make a hundred thousand? Okay. I think I can believe it. And like. I would be months or years to like just slowly incrementally like work on my thinking and my beliefs.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Mm hmm. Then you have starving artist mentality just piled on top of it. Are you, can you make money as an artist? Everyone says you can't, can't make money as an artist, can't make money as an artist. And then you have small town mentality, right? Who do you [00:40:00] think she is? Oh, that Ashton just doing her cute little drawing thing.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I'm like, no, I'm a serious business person who happens to have a creative business. So like these different hurdles I had to jump. These different the different wiring in my mind I had to do rewiring because I didn't grow up in a home that spoke positively about money and most of us don't right like money doesn't grow on trees like you could talk about the cliches all day long so.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You're in business to make money. So it's pretty important to have a pretty good mindset when it comes to your belief around money. And when you think of a wealthy person, what kind of person do you picture in your mind? Do you picture someone in a tie and a suit and they're all stuck up and snobby? Or do you picture someone like me with my like red plaid shirt and, you know, my little tattoo.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And like, I don't have purple hair right now, but I usually do. I'm getting it redone, you know, for my [00:41:00] purple hair, you know, it's all about purple here, you know? So it's like. You know, what is a wealthy person look like and a lot of us believe that that person doesn't look like us And that's wealthy and what however you define it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It doesn't have to be like monetary monetary wealth necessarily could be you know, wealthy in your time and how you can spend it or um your family or what have you right so You know, that was honestly the biggest struggle that I faced starting out and I still struggle with it. You know, I don't think, you know, people say like new level, new devil or new, yeah, new devil, new, but it's actually like new level same devil because it's the same, maybe it's a different twist, but it's a lot of the same issues.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, But I, I really heavily leaned on like, uh, changing my beliefs from, uh, into more of a universal energy thing. I got really woo woo to be honest with you. And I'm [00:42:00] like, everything, everything's going to work out, like everything's going to come when I, when it's the right timing, you know, and one of the big things I had to also get through was rejection because in this very strange business.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You're just constantly rejected constantly daily. And I had to, I could have let that stop me for sure. Cause it was very painful for a long time because they're not just saying no to your service, the saying no to your creativity, you know, they're saying no to what it is that you're going to create for them.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I had to really re, re, re change that in my mind. Like, no, they're not really saying no to my creativity. Like, they're just saying no to the service and they don't want to pay for it. Like, whatever, you know? Um, it's not attack of my personality and my, my own personal creativity or what I can bring to the table.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's just like, maybe I didn't explain the value of it enough. Or maybe they don't have the money and that's fine. Like, I want to be compensated well for this. So, like, if they don't have the money, that's okay. Um, so now [00:43:00] I, I feel pretty hardened to rejection and I see it as a, that's a disappointment if they don't hire me because I know the people would have experienced, had this beautiful experience by me being there.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So yeah, you, you get hardened to it and it turns into a little bit more confidence in your skillset and what you provide and what you are selling into the world. You know, cause at the end of the day, it is still a business transaction. And it's unfortunate if they choose not to because I know I could bring a lot to their meeting or their conference and people would really appreciate it and that's just too bad for them, you know, but seven years ago, man, every no was like a stab to the heart.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Stabbed. And every time I sent a proposal, my heart's like beating out of my chest. And you know, like my, I had to take my, I have to take my Fitbit off because it thinks I'm working out. It literally thinks I'm working out. Yes. Your heart's just like, yeah, yeah, definitely. 

Rich Bennett: Wow. That's yeah. But you know what?

Rich Bennett: The thing is [00:44:00] a lot of people would have given up and you didn't, and these are things that as a business owner, you're going to go through. Um, God, if, if I would have given up on the, you know, yeah, I mean, and it takes time to build it. So actually, actually, what do you, what do you know? I don't want to answer that yet because you said your husband started his own business when he was 19.

Rich Bennett: Right. And what's he do? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: He has a lawn care landscaping company. Oh, nice. 

Rich Bennett: Yeah. I knew who to sponsor this episode. It's going to be me. Yeah. I have a lawn care company. So 

Ashton Rodenhiser: there you go. Thank you for hiring people to do your lawn for you. Cause it supports families. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett: Who is your biggest mentor? Because a lot of people, when they start their own business, they have a mentor, somebody they look up to.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I really missed, I missed out. I really looked for one and I struggled. [00:45:00] I really, I think I should have leaned in on like the, the IFVP and like the other graphic recorders around the world. Like there, it's such a beautiful industry. Cause we like. Or very supportive of each other. And like through the pandemic was so helpful and technology trying to figure things out.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So there's like less of competition and more in collaboration as an industry. And I love, like, honestly, that was one of the things that really kept me in the beginning was this beautiful, like such the beauty of this industry. Um, and so I think I had like little, like, I knew I had that community to lean on a little bit, but I didn't have like a, that one person.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And, and it was, it. And I really, I looked for someone and I don't know if I was just shy and like, I'm not really good at network. I am an introvert. I know I sound like I'm an extrovert, but I'm not like, I don't want to go to a networking event and talk to people. Like, don't make me like, I'll talk to you.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like I'll talk to you all day, but I don't want to like go and just like be like, hi, I'm Ashton. It's awful. I hate it. You [00:46:00] know, so I, I struggled. Um, To, to, to that, my dad also owned a franchise at one for 19 years and he's real estate agent. So he also works for himself, you know, in a different kind of way.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So I think in, in some of that mindset stuff he had worked on a bit. So he, um. So he was like a, maybe a little bit of a mentor, but so I think I had like mentors, but not in like the traditional sense. Um, and then like, I think there's like mentors and just like books that I would read, read over and over and over again.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So even though like, I've never talked to these people, I would consider them a mentor because they were like there for me in words. And then videos or YouTube videos or courses that I've taken and stuff like that, even though I've never talked to them, their philosophies are things that I really, really resonated with.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And they were the ones that I would constantly be going back over and over and over again. 

Rich Bennett: So in that case, what do you contribute your success to? [00:47:00] 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I don't know if it's clear by now. I guess my tenacity, my tenacity and also like, uh, my, You have that never give up spirit. I do. I think that it has to be a huge part of it because like I talked about the rejection, I talked about the mindset stuff in the beginning and like I could have very easily let even just one of those things like totally derail everything.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's, um, it's very easy to self sabotage yourself. And, um, and I think for me, I had to really lean on, and this took a couple of years, actually, I had to lean on the Ashton way. Right? Because I would read books and I would consume all this information about business and a lot of it was very masculine and like dominate and hustle and do stuff.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I'm like, I don't like it. I don't want to have a funnel. I just want to have people that I help. You know, I want to work with people and they like me and we can work together and have good time [00:48:00] I don't want to like put people in a funnel like that doesn't feel good to me Like I don't want to be working have this like, you know, like yeah, I have strategies in my business But I don't look at them in the same way I think as these like dominating business ideals of like oh put someone in this and then do this and then send them this email And all of that like I don't know.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I'm like Fairly successful in what I'm doing and very busy at this point without all of the like yucky, weird salesy funneling stuff. So I think I had to give, and I did, I think I kind of defaulted into a bit because I'm like, well, if I have to be business, I guess I have to do it this way. Cause that's what all the dudes are saying.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I need to do it. And then a few years ago I was just like, you know what? I just need to lean in on the Ashton experience and I just need to show up and be myself. Self, and if people don't like it, that's okay. You know, I'm going to like, you know, my sales process isn't going to be perfect. My contract's not going to be like totally tight.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You know, the emails I send, they're not going to [00:49:00] have the best subject line in the whole world. Like, I'm not worried about it. You know, like the right people are going to come at the right time and it's going to be fine. You know? So there is this like kind of woo energy that I have to all of business.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And I really lean in on my intuition. And to be honest with you, it hasn't failed me yet. So if I can just do it that way, I'm fine with it. I don't need to like, you know, 10 X everything and hustle and do all of the stuff I'm going to do in my way. And, you know, like I read a book a couple of years back, I'd like to reread it actually called company of one.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Cause I'm like, I don't need to be a big company. Like I have an assistant part time and she's awesome. She keeps me organized. Right. I outsource things. Yeah, sure. But it's just me and I'm okay with that, you know, it doesn't mean that I'm not successful because I don't have a big team. Um, I didn't turn myself into a huge agency.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I don't want to manage people. I just want to like draw my pictures and help people do my thing. And that's [00:50:00] works for me. And I love that. And if someone wants to manage people and have an agency, that's cool. Like I love that for them, but I just want to do my thing. And you just showing up and doing your thing.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And running the, your business, the way that feels right to you and having some tenacity and never give up is helpful to, um, but just showing up and doing it every day, you know, how 

Rich Bennett: do you go about finding the businesses that you work for or work with? I should say. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. So at this point, um, I don't have to market a whole lot.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I get a lot of word of mouth. Um, but work begets work for me. So when I show up at a conference and I show up and do my best and people just naturally go, Oh my gosh, this is the best thing I've ever seen. Can we have a call? I'd love to talk to you about my next event or my next meeting or what have you.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And that's how I get work because it's, it's an experienced good. You have to experience the goods to understand the value. I could talk to you all day and show you pictures. [00:51:00] I could show you my 2, 500 pictures I've drawn. It's not going to mean as much. If you didn't experience it, right? So next time you're at a conference and you see someone drawing the thing, maybe it's me, maybe it's not, uh, when I, when I first started, I did a lot of cold outreach.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I just messaged conferences and be like, Hey, I do this thing. Maybe it would interest you. Let's talk about it. It was very friendly, very like chill. Um, and that's how I got some of my first conferences and I would just lean on. So, okay. So I did this.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, and then I would research those tech conferences and I'd be like, Hey, I did one in your exact industry, like to the, like the, like for specific software engineers doing this specific thing. And I would contact those conferences and say, Hey, I did this for this event. Maybe this would interest you.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right. So I just took my experience and tried to try to get more experience and, you know, it's a lot easier [00:52:00] for me to go, Hey, I did a tech conference the same as yours than to go to like, Hey, I hear a medical conference. So I, so I started doing a lot of tech things and I just leaned in and leaned in and leaned in and.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You know, for the last number of years or for a long time now, tech makes up a big portion of my client base because I have, and I've had tech conferences hire me because I have a lot of experience in their very particular, um, niche tech thing, you know, so, and so it's a combination of, of like leaning in on experience, reaching out to people and.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Just showing up and trying to do a good job. And then people are like, Hey, you should do something for us. 

Rich Bennett: I guess when you go, when you go to the conferences, it does make it a lot easier to say cold calling on a business because. You're already there. You're doing this. Hopefully they're seeing what you're doing and it makes it a lot easier for you to pitch that company because they saw you 

Ashton Rodenhiser: there.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Exactly. Yeah. It is like when people [00:53:00] experience the value for themselves, even if they can't articulate it. Yeah, it's such an easier sell. It's more about like, does it fit your budget at that point? Then, then like the actual education piece, because I don't have to explain the value of it because they were like, Oh my gosh, what you did was amazing.

Ashton Rodenhiser: La la la la la. Like it's really good for my ego. It's actually extreme. Like this work is very good for my ego because people just tell me how great I am all day long, um, because it's different and new and they have an. So, you know, and I know it's not about me, it's about the information, like the information speak for itself.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right. So, yeah, it's sort of, you know, there was a lot of work in those first few years for sure. Like I, you know, I had to kind of hunger down and message a lot of people. At one point I checked, I think it was a 2021, I sent 46, 000 emails, What between like 2017 and 2021. So I don't know what the math is per day, but like, that's a lot of conferences to email people.

Rich Bennett: It just hurts my head that you counted them. [00:54:00] 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Well, I just went to my scent folder and I have an email that is just for that. Oh, just for reaching out to people. So I knew that's what they were. That's what they all were cheating. 

Rich Bennett: No, it's smart. I need to do that now. Yeah, 

Ashton Rodenhiser: but yeah, like I, I don't really reach out to people.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like I used to, I did a lot. Then I cooled off when I got really busy in like 2019 and then I ramped it back up when the COVID hit. And then I cooled off again because I really want to focus on. The education piece and, and getting my book out there and stuff like that. 

Rich Bennett: Which is what I was about to ask you, because here you are, you're doing the work for all these different businesses, but now you're also teaching it.

Rich Bennett: Yeah. So I guess my biggest question is because, I mean, I used to be able to draw, but what do you say to the people who say they can't 

Ashton Rodenhiser: draw? Yeah, so we need to [00:55:00] redefine what drawing is. So drawing isn't something to be admired in an art gallery. Okay. Drawing is just a thinking tool. So it's a way to make marks on a page to help yourself think.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right? Um, I, I love this TED talk by Sunny Brown called Doodlers Unite. And when she redefines the doodle, that's how she redefines it. Is making spontaneous marks to help yourself think. And that's what thinking, or sorry, that's what drawing should be. So doodling and drawing should be, it should be about making a mark on a piece of paper to help explain something.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You know, the napkin is a very common thing when you're at a spa and you're like, let's grab a napkin. Who has a pen? Let's draw this out. Right. That's. That's drawing using drawing as a thinking tool in action, right? So how can we take that and incorporate that into our work life, you know, work in life.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And it's, uh, it's an incredibly powerful tool to help yourself learn and engage and deepen that understanding and make those connections. And [00:56:00] there's learning in the engagement of the process of sketchnoting or drawing your notes or visual note taking because you're thinking, whereas. A lot of traditional note taking, um, is very linear and a lot of it is missing the thinking part.

Ashton Rodenhiser: You're listening and you're capturing, but you're not thinking about what you're capturing. You're just writing it down. You're hearing, you're writing, you're hearing, you're writing, whereas sketchnoting makes you pause for a second. It makes you think. It makes you try to build connections with whatever you've actually, or what you've already captured.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Mm hmm. Right? So it's, uh, great for people who know how to draw and great for people who don't know how to draw because it can teach you the sketchnoting elements in 15 minutes and it's, and it all starts with the line. That's all you need to know. Just draw a line. You can draw a line because you can write letters because letters are just drawings in disguise.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So just write a line. I was going to say, I 

Rich Bennett: think I can draw a line. [00:57:00] You can draw a line, man. Maybe not a, maybe not a stick, man, but I could 

Ashton Rodenhiser: draw. Yeah. Turn that line into an arrow and you're, uh, well on your way. You know, you can use a line to help connect information, to separate information, to show flow of information.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Like you could have actually probably very beautiful sketchnote. And less about beauty, actually, but a very meaningful sketch note with just lines. Your info, your information is always going to be really, really important. So you got to make sure you capture all that. But other than that, use some lines, use some arrows.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. Do a stick person if you want. Do a star person. It's an upgraded stick person. It's not hard to draw. You can learn how to draw a star person. Some basics about color. Some containers, which is basically a square or a circle. And you can get fancy if you want. A line and an arrow. Bob's your uncle? Yeah.

Rich Bennett: The book What? Uh, doodle The Maritime, right? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah, I got Doodle the Maritimes. That was more of like a fun passion project, but my Sketchnoting book is, um, [00:58:00] the Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting. 

Rich Bennett: Is it now, is that on your website? It's on 

Ashton Rodenhiser: my Sketchnoting website, which you probably don't have 'cause I haven't updated my profile yet, but I know Sketchnote School.

Ashton Rodenhiser: www. sketchnote. school. And you can find everything you need to know about getting on my newsletter and getting a sketchnote tip every Saturday. You can learn about how to get a PDF version or information about the paperback version of the book. And you can learn about my community. So where I'm helping people ongoing, you know, business leaders, educators.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Stay at home moms, whoever wants to learn how to visualize, um, information and have a good time. Today we, in our community, we had a guest interview and it was a guy from, I think he's in, uh, Portugal and he's a UX, he's a UX designer and he, how he's using sketchnoting in, in his work life. And [00:59:00] then also he teaches like creativity to kids and how he's using it for that too.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So it's, oh, I'm always really fascinated about all the different use cases and how people use this kind of skill. Right. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett: And that is sketchnote. school. Yes. Okay. But the other website, which is 

Ashton Rodenhiser: MindsEyeCreative. ca. That's where you can basically go and learn everything when it comes to me as a professional.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So if you have a conference or a meeting. You want to chat about that, you can go to that website and I've got a couple of, you know, I only have a few examples because I'm not putting 2, 500 examples on there. Why not? Yeah, I know. So I'm like, six is fine. You know, if you're not won over by six, like 2, 500 is not going to do it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Um, so how to contact me on there. I don't do a contact form anymore because all I was getting was spam. So there's my, oh yeah, every day it was driving me insane. So I took off, I took off my contact. Form, but people can, I've got my WhatsApp, I got a calendar on there. You can just book a call with me and get right into my [01:00:00] calendar or, uh, 

Rich Bennett: yeah, products on there as well.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah. I've got some other little books and things that I've kind of created over the years, some step by step doodle books and things that you can check out. And yeah, it's been a, it's been a wild ride and I'm happy to continue on. 

Rich Bennett: Um, so, okay. I got the websites out. Which I didn't know there was 

Ashton Rodenhiser: two. I know.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I'm so complicated. . Yeah, that's 

Rich Bennett: alright. is there before I ask you this last question and, and there's a ton of questions I could ask you. I know I'm sure. Um, which, which means you're just gonna have to come on again 

Ashton Rodenhiser: because I'll, I would love that you like bring, you brought out the, the extra weird in me today.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I don't know. I just, yeah, it's all, it's a great way to end it. Well, you have 

Rich Bennett: to come after you get your hair colored purple for the Baltimore Ravens, uh, wait a minute. Yeah. Well, actually I got, why purple? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Purple's the best color, man. If 

Rich Bennett: I know that, but I could say that I'm here in Baltimore. Yeah, it's our 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Ravens colors.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's always been [01:01:00] my favorite color. I don't know what it is about purple. I watched a little tick talk one thing about people who love purple. And I laughed hysterically because it's so true. Like people who love purple, we love purple. Like when you say what's your favorite color and you say purple, there's something special about us.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Purple people, but it's just like, it's like, Oh, my favorite color is blue. It's nice. Or like my favorite color is red. That's okay. But it's like, no, purple's the best. So sometimes I have to be mindful of how much purple I use when I'm live illustrating, because I just want to put purple in everything. So I love it when people compliment on my purple.

Ashton Rodenhiser: When, if I do one that has, that is very purple, they're like, Oh, I love it. Look, I have a purple pen in my hand. Like I can't help. I've got a purple wall behind purple Fitbit. I purple fit. I cannot, I just couldn't wear purple. I'd actually don't own a lot of purple clothing because my whole world is purple.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I got two purple chairs right over there. It's great. Look at my phone case. Look at my phone case. It is [01:02:00] purple. Everything's purple. Wow. 

Rich Bennett: There's a purple people here. Uh, 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I had such a long time with you today. This has been such a blast. Oh, 

Rich Bennett: it's, it's actually one of the things I wanted a couple, two more questions before I get to the final question.

Rich Bennett: Number one, have you also thought about being a, like a business coach? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I have. I have thought about it. I think I'd be really good at it too. I think you would too. I'm not that I'm feeling, I think I'm just feeling extra confident today. You got me on a good day to say that out loud. Um, I do coach one graphic recorder right now, um, on an ongoing basis.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I, I just don't like the idea of having to start a whole new business. 

Rich Bennett: So well, well, you said you started a nonprofit too. Do you 

Ashton Rodenhiser: still have that? I know, I don't, I don't run the Covid kind of killed that a little bit. Okay. And I ha and I haven't decided whether or not I'm gonna bring it back or not.

Ashton Rodenhiser: 'cause it [01:03:00] was a physical location and we closed it. So I don't know. It was a nonprofit arts community center. Ooh. I know. It was awesome. But we just couldn't make it work. Um, and I was putting a lot of my own personal time and money into it. Right. I just couldn't do it. Um, And yeah, I love the idea and I think I would love to do it, but I haven't, um, I haven't really dived into it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I might do a course on teaching graphic recorders about money. I'm in the money mindset. I'm doing a free workshop with the community in a couple of weeks, and I might put together a paid thing if people are interested. Um, I think, cause I actually really, it's really weird. I'm like this super creative person that really loves talking about money.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And so, uh, it would be less on, like, you know, and accounting and, and things like that, but it'd be more about, like, how we think about money, how we define that for ourselves and how we hold ourselves back about how we think about it. Um, but yeah, no, I have thought about going, getting into business coaching, but yeah, the idea of [01:04:00] starting another business.

Ashton Rodenhiser: On top of everything else. I don't, yeah. 

Rich Bennett: In addition to, uh, yeah, 

Ashton Rodenhiser: maybe, 

Rich Bennett: maybe. Yeah, then I have a funny feeling. I'm going to know the answer to my next question. Okay. When you're going to start your own podcast? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I, I don't know. I don't know. I thought about it, thought about it, but it's such a visual medium.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I think it'd have to be more of a visual podcast. So people can see all the purple! You got to see the purple, like I'd want to get people on probably I have thought about getting on like there is a really great sketchnoting podcast by Mike Rohde who kind of coined the term sketchnoting. Oh really? He's got the sketchnote army podcast and it is really good.

Ashton Rodenhiser: I'm actually going to be a guest on it next week. Um, finally, podcast for a long time, so I'm very excited. Uh, but he has more [01:05:00] professionals on there, and I have thought about more of leaning in on my community aspect of where I want the people who become, who don't really want to become a professional, but they're just using sketchnoting in their day to day.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right. No, they're using it in their business. They're using it in, um, with their kids. They're using it in their meditations and their self care. They're using it in like so many different ways. So I feel like I would, if I did do one, it would be more of like your average Joe using this skill set instead of like, I'm the professional and this is how I use this skill set.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And it, yeah. So it's less about their experience. Like it may be somebody who's only been sketchnoting for a month or six months. Or maybe they've been doing it for 10 years, but they only, like, really use it in one aspect of their life. Like, you know, people who, like, go to church on Sunday and they sketch note the sermon, for example, right?

Ashton Rodenhiser: So, like, it'd be cool to interview those folks, those folks that are just [01:06:00] using it in their day to day. Not really as a profession, but just to like elevate some aspect of their life, um, or work. So I have thought about that part. 

Rich Bennett: We'll see. And that stuff is taught in your book, right? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah, so, because when I wrote the book, the beginner part of the Beginner's Guide to Sketch Noting, that's what was so important to me, was that it's hand holding people through the very beginning processes of like drawing a line, as I felt like that was missing in the world.

Ashton Rodenhiser: because a lot of the examples that are shown are from people like me who have been doing it for so long. And then there's this huge gap from someone who says, I don't know how to draw to, I could never. And then they look at something that I've done 10 years in and go, I could never do that. And I'm like, I believe this is a skill that everybody can learn and everybody can benefit from it.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Even if you believe you can't draw. Right, because you can, I, I'm pretty confident I can build your drawing skill confidence in a [01:07:00] very short amount of time, right? And that, that was my notion and idea with the book. I want people to have the confidence by the end of that book that they're like, This isn't as hard as I thought it was going to be.

Ashton Rodenhiser: This is actually doable. I could actually do this, you know, because it can be such a powerful learning tool. So why not make it as like a non threatening, low barrier to entry as possible? Yeah. Hmm. 

Rich Bennett: Interesting. Yeah. I'm going to have to definitely read this now. So the beginner's guide to sketchnoting.

Ashton Rodenhiser: What color, what color is the book, Rich? It's purple.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Exactly. 

Rich Bennett: Purple. And it looks like teal as well, but yeah, it's purple. So all of you listening, when you get the book, make sure you leave a full review. for Ashton on Goodreads or Amazon, wherever you get the book from. Um, something [01:08:00] I like to ask everybody that, because you've been on several podcasts already.

Rich Bennett: And you just, God, how, how long ago did you start going on podcasts? It wasn't that long ago, was it? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I did a couple over the years and then I just started amping up. So I think I've been on like 25 or something. And most of those have been within the last like six weeks. So I know I've been talking about myself a lot.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's 

Rich Bennett: exhausting. And all this is because of Podmatch? 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yeah, pod match. And I also use matchmaker, but I like pod match better. Yes. I do. I match is awesome. Anybody out there looking to get pod match is awesome. 

Rich Bennett: And no, it's not like, I don't even know what they're called. Tinder or whatever, swipe right, left.

Rich Bennett: Damn, whatever. Like, 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I 

Rich Bennett: gotta, I gotta ask Alex about that. Alex, what were you thinking of when you said pod match? Because some people might think it's like a dating surf. I guess it is for [01:09:00] podcasters 

Ashton Rodenhiser: and I am number seven, just saying, and the September member leaderboard for jazz, I am number seven. Thank you.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Oh, wow. 

Rich Bennett: That's awesome. Congratulations. Well, then this question should be easy for you. Okay. Well, it's not me asking a question. Well, it is in a way. So out of all the people that have interviewed you, is there anything that you were hoping that a hoose would have asked you that they never did? And if so, what would be that question and what would be your 

Ashton Rodenhiser: answer?

Ashton Rodenhiser: Oh my goodness. You're really putting me on the spot here. Um, 

Rich Bennett: you're wearing my shirt. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: I have to. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wearing plaid. Everybody. Yeah. So I, oh my gosh, I don't know. I don't know because I've been on different types of podcasts. Like one, you know, some are like really focused on creativity. Some are really focused on business.[01:10:00] 

Ashton Rodenhiser: And some are like a combination of the two. So I don't know the end. I don't know how to answer that question. Um. You know, I, I've been on some like mother kind of podcast. So I have an opportunity to like, talk about like how I managed to run this business while also raising small three small children.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Right. Um, so I don't know how to answer that question. I'm sorry. All right. 

Rich Bennett: So I'll ask you this. Okay. Okay. The tattoo on your wrist. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Yes, I do. I have a fern on my wrist. Why the fern? Um, my daughter, my oldest daughter's name is Fern. Oh. Mm-hmm. . I have all weird names in my, I have a, I like that foreign name.

Ashton Rodenhiser: That's a pretty name. I have an Asif, which means the harvest. Oh, okay. And I have a Salix. Which is Latin for willow. So they're all very naturey kind of names. I, I, I told people I cannot have any more kids because the names [01:11:00] just get weirder and weirder. Hey, 

Rich Bennett: look, if Elon Musk can name his kids numbers, that's true.

Rich Bennett: There's nothing wrong with your kids 

Ashton Rodenhiser: names. I gave them pretty like normal middle names as a backup. As a backup is so if they hated it, they hate their name, they can default to their middle name. Cause 

Rich Bennett: it's, how did you come up with those names though? I like that. I 

Ashton Rodenhiser: like them. Fern. I just always loved as a name, you know, picture of Fern, you picture a little old lady.

Ashton Rodenhiser: And that's what I was going for. It's like an old name. I really liked Ivy. I almost went with Ivy, but I really love Fern. And ASAP is actually my husband's family. His, his middle name is his grandfather's name. It's a German name. It's also an Arabic name, but we have a lot of German ancestry. That's what my last name is.

Ashton Rodenhiser: It's my married name, Rodenizer, it's German. And then Salix was almost kind of like a joke because my husband, he took horticulture school, right? So he had to learn Latin words for plants and. They're very strange. So like [01:12:00] Douglas fir is pseudo Sugu men's easy. I, so, so you can be like, Oh, let's play. Let's name our child.

Ashton Rodenhiser: Sudo Suga men's easy. I, um, so we were driving one day and we didn't know if we were going to have a girl or boy for any of them. And we, uh, so I started, you know, joking, ha ha. What's the Latin word for this? What's the Latin word for this? And they're all very funny. Right. And I said, what's the Latin word for Willow?

Ashton Rodenhiser: And he said, Salix. And I was like, wait a second. I kind of like that. I know this was a joke, but I kind of like it. It rose. So we decided if we had a boy, we would name it Salix and we had a different girl name picked out. And as the date got closer and closer, I was thinking about if I didn't have a boy, I was actually going to be disappointed because I really liked the name Salix.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So we decided, so it was actually the only child that, cause we didn't know what we're having for any of them. It was the only child that we knew the name before they were born. Cause we said, look, if it's a girl, if it's a boy. Let's, let's go with Salix. [01:13:00] Um, it actually suits her really well. She's a little, she's a little Salix.

Ashton Rodenhiser: So every once in a while, you'll run into like a horticulture person, and they'll be like, Willow! And I'm like, exactly. So, but that's like maybe three people in her whole life. So far . So . Um, yeah, I love them. I love the news. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. You know, naming a child is like one of those like really precious moments in life that Yeah, you wanna do it justice.

Ashton Rodenhiser: 'cause you're gonna be saying that name over and over and over again for a long time. So, oh yeah. 

Rich Bennett: Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt. Yeah. Well, Asha, I want to thank you so much. You definitely have to come on again because I would love to talk about, after I read the book, I want to talk to you more about sketchnoting and how it can help kids.

Rich Bennett: I love what you said about church and the sermon and stuff like that. Um, and also even helping like nonprofits because I would think a lot, your nonprofits always have a secretary. I [01:14:00] think this would be good for secretaries as 

Ashton Rodenhiser: well. That's a good idea too. Yeah. I am in person. Yeah. That's 

Rich Bennett: cool. Definitely.

Rich Bennett: Without a doubt. So thank you so much. And, um, I'm going to have to go put some purple on 

Ashton Rodenhiser: now. Go wear some purple. Yeah. Every time you think of purple, you'll think of me and 

Rich Bennett: I can't, yeah, I know. I'm going to be wearing purple for the Ravens game Sunday. And it's yeah, I'm not gonna, I can't even focus on the game now.

Rich Bennett: I'm just going to be like, Ashton's probably wearing weird 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Canadian 

Rich Bennett: girl doesn't even watch the NFL. They got the CFL. I'm not 

Ashton Rodenhiser: a sports person. Could you guess? Could you guess I'm not a sports person? No. No, I wouldn't 

Rich Bennett: have guessed that. Oh, okay, okay. Asher, thank you so much. 

Ashton Rodenhiser: Thank you.