Bridging Divides: A Conversation with Julie Rose

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett. And today, I am honored to welcome a very special guest, Julie Rose, a seasoned radio journalist with over two decades of experience in the field. Julie has made significant contributions to NPR's local stations and network shows like Morning Edition and All Things Considered. In 2015, Julian embarked on a new venture as the host of Top of Mind, a nationally syndicated live interview show, which on the time I believe was just XM Radio, which has since evolved into a weekly podcast known for tackling tough topics in a manner that's both honest and probing. Joy's work is driven by a mission to leave listeners feeling more empathetic and empowered after engaging with challenging discussions. Facing the very challenge of news avoidance and the polarization of information sources head on. Joy has re-emerged top of mind with Julie Rose to be a space where divisive issues are addressed with an open heart and mind. Her efforts have not only been recognized with a Gracie Award. No, not named after my daughter and multiple Edward R Murrow Awards, but have also positioned her as a leading voice in bridging divides in public discourse. Today, Julie joins us to share her invaluable insights on developing the skills necessary for listening to and understanding perspectives we might disagree with and how we can work towards bridging the divides within our communities. It's a conversation about fostering, understanding, empathy and unity in a world often marked by differences. Julie, welcome to the show. I've been looking forward to this because I think you and I, when it comes to our podcasts, we look at everything the same. We believe and if I'm wrong, correct me, but 

I think the biggest problem today is people think they have to debate. Everything and not have a conversation about And I think that's a problem. We need to have conversations about things. 

Julie Rose 2:17
Right there with you. Yes, absolutely. Rich, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this as well. Yeah, And that was a very generous introduction there of my bio. I mean, the key point here is that I'm coming from a personal place, my own personal journey of, you know, being a radio journalist in public radio news reporting and then doing, you know, doing the live daily interview show that you mentioned. We did that for seven years on satellite radio and also on a bunch of stations around the country every every day for 2 hours, Monday through Friday, live on the radio. We would do maybe six interviews in the course of a two hour show and. 

Rich Bennett 3:01
Wow. 

Julie Rose 3:02
I mean, I did probably 10,000 interviews. I counted at least over the course of those seven years on anything. But our whole thing was we want to have thoughtful, curious conversations where we're engaging with ideas, listening carefully and exposing ourselves to new perspectives. 

And after seven years, our management said, okay, this is great. What else can we do? What can we do? Something more than then, you know, fill the airwaves with good conversations. 

Rich Bennett 3:36
Right. 

Julie Rose 3:36
And right at that same point, so the invitation was, make yourself a weekly podcast. What are you going to do? Sky's the limit, right? 

Rich Bennett 3:44
Mm. 

Julie Rose 3:45
And right at the same point, though, I was harboring an embarrassing secret. 

I was a journalist covering the news, talking about the big topics in the world and. 

Rich Bennett 3:58
Right. 

Julie Rose 3:59
I could not bring myself to cover the news. I like to tune in to the news. I had stopped listening. I mean, I had been one of these people for the first 15 years of my career and before that, you know, I was the one that would wake up first thing in the morning. I wasn't listening. I loved music, but I wasn't listening to any music. I would wake up first thing in the morning and turn on the news, and then I'd be checking the checking my my alerts. And I was I was constantly consuming the news. I would have it on so loud when I would take a shower. I didn't have like a shower radio, right? And 

Rich Bennett 4:28
Right. 

Julie Rose 4:28
so I would turn it on. So loud that my neighbors would be pounding on the wall. You know, on my door. Please turn your radio down in the morning. It's. I don't. I'm like, I know, I know. But I got to I was just like, constantly. I'm in the car everywhere I go. I'm consuming and I loved it. I was so engaged by it. But here I was about five years ago. just couldn't bring myself to do it. I, I the news. It just felt toxic. It felt 

Rich Bennett 4:58
Right. 

Julie Rose 4:58
depressing. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if you can relate to any of this. 

Rich Bennett 5:02
Oh, absolutely. 

Julie Rose 5:05
And for me, you know, I felt and I the other thing to know is that I'm a clinically anxious person with a lot of, you know, a tendency toward depression and. 

Rich Bennett 5:17
Okay. 

Julie Rose 5:18
Like it wasn't helping any of that. My state of mind, it was not helping. And yet I'm a journalist. Like, how can I not be like, that's my job to follow the news. And I started to have this, like, crisis. Do I have to get out of this field? Like, what else can I do? 

And yeah, and I was also like, embarrassed to admit any of this because obviously it was my job to show up every day and talk about what's going on in the world. So I had to be informed, but I was also feeling trapped and depressed by all of it. And I. And this was right around the same time that our my boss was like, Hey, you think about making this a weekly podcast. And I'm like, All right, could it be an entertainment podcast? Like, what could I do that's not about the news, right? Like, what else is there? And I stumbled on an opinion piece by a journalist named Amanda Ripley in the Washington Post and the headline for her. This was a couple of years ago. She's a journalist. She's an author. She's written an amazing book called High Conflict. 

Rich Bennett 6:24
Okay. 

Julie Rose 6:24
Why do we get trapped and how to get out? And her headline was, I am a journalist and I can't stand the news like I'm avoiding the news. It was something like that, right? And I was. 

Rich Bennett 6:35
Wow. 

Julie Rose 6:36
Wait. I'm not the only one. And she's admitting it publicly. Oh, my goodness. What's happening here? Well, I went went on to learn that close to 40% of Americans actually are news avoiders. Actively avoid the news either entirely or certain topics and or certain, you know, or at least for periods of time. 

Rich Bennett 6:55
You said 40%. 

Julie Rose 6:56
Close to 40%. This is according to the Reuters International 

Rich Bennett 6:59
Wow. 

Julie Rose 7:00
Institute. Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 7:01
I didn't think 

Julie Rose 7:02
do 

Rich Bennett 7:02
it was 

Julie Rose 7:02
it. 

Rich Bennett 7:02
that high. 

Julie Rose 7:03
Yeah, they do. And you know what? They do this globally. And 

Rich Bennett 7:06
Yeah. 

Julie Rose 7:06
America is not alone in this, but. 

Rich Bennett 7:07
Right? 

Julie Rose 7:08
Our our numbers have been climbing like since 2017, sort of as things got even more ugly and more polarized and it started to feel more and more like, you know, people on the left and the right were living in kind of separate worlds and saw the other people as the enemy. Like, that's not new, but it's just sort of we've dug ourselves deeper into that 

Rich Bennett 7:31
Yeah. 

Julie Rose 7:31
into those camps over the last 6 to 8 years. Yeah. So that number actually in 2022, it hit like it hit 41%, I think, in the U.S. And then last year it ticked down to 37%. So active, avoiding. 

Rich Bennett 7:43
Justine. 

Julie Rose 7:44
Yeah, it is really interesting, but for me it was really comforting. 

Rich Bennett 7:49
Yeah. 

Julie Rose 7:49
I wasn't the only one. And so then I thought, All right, well, the answer maybe is that we all avoid the news. Like, maybe we just live in our happy bubbles, which I know kind of relates a little bit to the story of founding Hertford County, living right for you. Like, we need more good news. And that's our. 

Rich Bennett 8:05
Yes. 

Julie Rose 8:05
We do need journalists to do more solutions based news that helps us to feel empowered and not just like the world is falling apart and 

Rich Bennett 8:16
The 

Julie Rose 8:16
everybody's 

Rich Bennett 8:16
more positive. 

Julie Rose 8:16
the bad guy. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:19
But the other thing is to and not to cut you off, but you also even though I don't watch the news, I still see the news because you still have to stay. You still have to know what's going on. Like, you 

Julie Rose 8:32
And you 

Rich Bennett 8:32
know. 

Julie Rose 8:33
go, you can't avoid it. It's 

Rich Bennett 8:34
No, you can't. 

Julie Rose 8:35
So here's another really interesting thing that I learned from that same the Reuters. 

Rich Bennett 8:38
Mm hmm. 

Julie Rose 8:39
They do this journalism digital journalism report. I mean, it's fascinating. 

Rich Bennett 8:42
Right. 

Julie Rose 8:42
You should look it up. They do it every year. And this last year, they looked even deeper into the whole news avoidance thing. And one thing that they discovered is that the there is a steady increase in the use of passive news consumption. So there are a lot of us out there who say we actively avoid the news at certain points in our. In our day or our lives are a week. So a lot of people are out there saying, I actively avoid certain kinds of news. Interesting point about that is that it's it's different depending on where you fall on the political spectrum. So. 

Rich Bennett 9:17
Ah, 

Julie Rose 9:17
People on the right are more likely to in the United States, are more likely to avoid news about social justice issues or climate change. People on the left are more likely to avoid news about 

crime, personal 

Rich Bennett 9:34
yeah, 

Julie Rose 9:34
safety, and to be less interested in business news, financial news about the economy. Interesting. Really interesting. So, you know, so so what we're avoiding is also dependent on our political views. It's 

Rich Bennett 9:48
right. 

Julie Rose 9:48
dependent on obviously, our our communities and where we live. But but passive news consumption is the piece that's growing the fastest. And by passive, we mean you're not actively searching out. You're not even really reading full articles. You're not. 

Rich Bennett 10:06
Boy. 

Julie Rose 10:06
You're definitely not like commenting or sharing or engaging. You're just letting it wash over you. And that is when you think about it. When you say like, you have to follow, like you still know what's going on in the world, Well, think about how you know that you know that by. I don't know, stuff that's scrolling by on social 

Rich Bennett 10:25
Social 

Julie Rose 10:26
media. 

Rich Bennett 10:26
media. Right. 

Julie Rose 10:27
Right. You see headlines scrolling by. You may be to turn on the TV for a few minutes while you're, you know, eating dinner or cooking or whatever. Like, you hear the headlines kind of pop up on your radio maybe while you're driving or it pops up on your Apple News app or. People are talking about it at the WaterCooler or wherever, you know, And so you're kind of hearing it. But the risk with passive news consumption is that you feel like you are more informed than you actually are and you are more susceptible to falling into 

a more biased perception of the story. You're not actively seeking out multiple perspectives. You're really only hearing kind of the views or the take, the spin that comes from your own, you know, community, your own sort of like like minded people on Facebook or whatever, or you or you get the impression that it's a lot uglier out there than it really is, because and this is partly why a lot of us want to avoid the news, because if you're not actively consuming the news, then if you're just passively having it wash over you, then the algorithms are deciding for you what you're going to see, and it is going to be the most inflammatory, the most emotional, the most depressing, the most unbelievable. Right. That's going to inflame those emotions. And this was this was a key insight for me to realize I'm the news bums me out. 

Rich Bennett 11:56
Right. 

Julie Rose 11:57
But if I don't follow the news, if I don't do something active about it, then I'm going to fall into this passive world where it's just going to bum me out more because I'm not taking control of my kids. 

Rich Bennett 12:05
Yeah. 

Julie Rose 12:07
And I also felt like, look, I could bury my head in the sand and live my own little life where I just am sort of like in a bubble. And I don't know what's going on in the world. Like, I could really try to do that. But for me, that didn't feel like it didn't feel right, didn't feel like I could be the kind of person that I wanted. I didn't feel like I could vote in any informed way. I didn't feel like I could I could engage in important conversations with people in my life. I didn't feel like I could even advocate for the things that matter to me and my community to understand, like how to be, how to live in community in a in a more productive way. 

Rich Bennett 12:46
Well, the good thing is you're talking about it with the guests you have on and everything, and that's making a difference. And that's that's the big thing I've had. I mean, just to give you an idea on my podcast, I've had guest on that I would have never dreamed of having on. Yeah. Because yeah, it's a you're right today in today's world, you know, the political everybody's got different political views even religious views. I think the biggest problem is people forgot how to get along. 

Julie Rose 13:19
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 13:19
And like I said earlier in how to Converse and you need to do that. One of the things that you mentioned it briefly there. As far as people not reading the articles and I don't even know when this started, but it seems like nowadays people are making their own articles. And what I mean by that is people are there headline readers? That's all they do. They read the headline and then they're writing their own story to it. That's a big problem. 

Julie Rose 13:48
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 13:49
And the funny thing is, I did that for I tested that out on one of my episodes for a young lady who wrote a book. Well, it was Sunflowers in the Snow. It was she wrote, It's about a Ukrainian war and this is before the Ukrainian war even started. But she also wrote her husband wrote a tea on a bicycle from Oregon to D.C.. So in the headlines or for the headline. And this is on social media, I put something about 

what was it like traveling on a bicycle before to looking at the sunflowers in the snow or something like that. And then the hashtags. Yeah, hashtags, Ukrainian war, bicycle, stuff like that. Lo and behold, somebody commented about the war. How are they even helping? So did you even listen to the podcast? No, I'm not feeding into your propaganda. 

Julie Rose 14:46
Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:48
Really? 

Julie Rose 14:49
Yeah. No, I hear you. Well, in all of this, you know, this the news avoidance, the passive consumption was that I was starting to learn about was a really 

Rich Bennett 14:59
Mm. 

Julie Rose 14:59
important part of my recognition that there has to be a better way because it's not. It's not just that that we're lazy and don't want to engage with the news as consumers. The news is also there's a lot of information and it's very difficult to kind of figure out what to trust, what not to trust. It requires a level of literacy on the part of a news consumer that is challenging and takes time and I mean, the truth is that, you know, the news bad news is always more interesting than good news, kind of just in general, like that's our evil. 

Rich Bennett 15:30
Yeah. 

Julie Rose 15:31
Fairly wired to be concerned about threats, you know, and to know sort of what we need to avoid. And so anyway, it's a you know, for me, I thought here I had come to this moment where I'm like, okay, it's not just me. There's got to be a better way 

Rich Bennett 15:44
Mhm. 

Julie Rose 15:45
for people. And and out of that came the podcast that we developed, which is top of mind, as you mentioned. And all out of that also came for me a lot of personal, a lot of learning, realizing, readjusting, realizing 

Rich Bennett 16:00
Right. 

Julie Rose 16:01
how I was not effectively in or interacting with people, how I was avoiding important conversations because I didn't want to have to debate not understanding how to have a conversation that wouldn't become a debate, that there are certain skills that I just hadn't learned. And also coming to recognize one of the things that we do with top of mind is we take we take one topic every week and it's a topic that people might might be the kind of topic you don't really want to talk with people about because you're afraid it's going to turn out into a debate or you 

Rich Bennett 16:32
Right. 

Julie Rose 16:32
think you know everything there is to know about it. You know your position on it, the end and. My goal with every single top of mind episode is to help people see that it's just a little bit more complicated. I want you to hear something that will challenge you a little bit, maybe that you'll even kind of disagree with. And but I want you to also feel new empathy. You're hearing people aren't coming on and just telling you how dumb you are for not thinking a certain way. That's one of the things that frustrates me about a lot of media these days is I'm either going to hear somebody who is preaching to the choir and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Or I'm going to hear somebody whose voice in the opposite perspective, but has such disdain for me and my opposite perspective that I'm you know, I just can't get over the fact that I feel attacked. And it's really hard for me to listen openly in a situation like that. And so we're trying to present what I'm looking for, both in our podcast and in the news that I consume, is opportunities to be respected, to know that my view that I have dignity and that my view is okay and matters, but that I'm and that's going to help me to be more open and ready to just listen, listen, listen. With curiosity and. Be willing to stay a little uncomfortable knowing that I'm safe, that you're not going to, you know, come through the air pods and strangle me or. I feel like I can listen carefully and openly and see if it cracks something open new in me. And so we're we're looking you know, I always tell my producers, I'm like, I don't want anyone with hot takes. Anybody who's 

Rich Bennett 18:17
Now. 

Julie Rose 18:17
just like a pundit who wants to just rile people up. We're not going to have debates. We're not going to have any, you know, any any dismissing or demonizing of the other side. 

Rich Bennett 18:27
Mm. 

Julie Rose 18:27
We're looking to understand the why people how people came to feel, the way they feel about a specific issue from their personal experience or from their research and expertise. I want to see a little contradiction. I want to see the complexity. I want and our guests are willing to sit with us and sort of say, yeah, it's not always black and white, like there is some. 

Rich Bennett 18:50
Right. 

Julie Rose 18:51
Give and take. And I'm complex and you're complex. And my perspective is sometimes a little contradictory on this topic. And that's okay because we're human. And if at the end of the day, you're going to spend 53 minutes with me, you're going to hear three or four different perspectives. We're going to listen carefully. We're going to hear some really interesting stories. You're going to hear some stuff that's maybe kind of surprising that you hadn't expected. Oh, this is hard. More complicated than I thought it was. I never really knew that before about this issue. I didn't know that history or I didn't know that context. I didn't know someone out there could think that or that. This is why they would think that. Now I see my opponent, quote unquote, in a more human light and at the end of it, I can promise you that one of three things will have happened. Well, you probably won't have changed your mind, which is totally fine. That's not my goal. I'm not. We're not taking a side. I'm not trying to sell you anything on this on this particular topic. But you're going to feel new empathy. 

Because you've heard a few human stories of people that maybe you disagree with or have life experience that's completely different from your own and or you're going to have more clarity about your own view simply because you were willing to sit and listen to someone you disagree with. And in listening to them, you things started sparking for you. Oh, when they're saying that I really think this now I'm more clear about how I can express my position. You get more clarity. We don't get clarity by sort of just staying in our own little bubble and with our own, you know, limited set of facts and life experience. We have to be willing to sit in the presence of information that challenges us to think more deeply about our own views and understand the limits of our views. And the third thing that you may experience, and I personally find that I have all of these three things every time we do one of these episodes is that, you know, now how to better advocate for what matters to you. Not only do you have more clarity, but you also know, oh, here's an opening or here's some common ground, or you know what? I never really thought about this as being part of that issue, but I'm going to actually try to get that in my community now, whatever it is, because your mind has been opened to other perspectives. 

Rich Bennett 21:20
Yeah, that's that's a key thing too, because a lot of it, especially when it comes to the advocacy, a lot of people that are trying to advocate for certain things really do know everything about it. And you have to. You have to you have to know everything. And you it's it's good to know everybody's view 

Julie Rose 21:43
Yeah, I 

Rich Bennett 21:43
and. 

Julie Rose 21:44
have to. 

Rich Bennett 21:44
A lot of times it's hard, but it's good. 

Julie Rose 21:46
I had to tell you my favorite story about this. That really is one of the stories that just kind of. It blows my mind, but it's also become like a foundational 

inspiration for me and the work that we're doing. Are you familiar with the what's sometimes called the abortion talks that took place in Boston in the nineties? 

Rich Bennett 22:08
Now. 

Julie Rose 22:09
Yeah. So, okay, this is a farce. There is actually a really great documentary that's currently out right now called the Abortion Talks. Sometimes it's called The Basement Talks because you'll find out in just a second. 

Rich Bennett 22:19
No, you just did an episode about that. 

Julie Rose 22:21
We did an episode about. Yes. Yeah. People can go back and check out our episode on this that we did. It was about a year ago because 

Rich Bennett 22:27
Okay. 

Julie Rose 22:27
when I started learning about this, I'm like, I got to find out more about this story, and the movie was coming out at the same time. So here's the here's the here's the story. In the nineties, this was the Supreme Court was rule. You know, Roe v Wade was in place. But there were other there were other cases that were coming before the court kind of trying to define the limits, the extent of the right to an abortion. And there the abortion debate, the epicenter of it was Boston, Massachusetts. 

Rich Bennett 22:59
Okay. 

Julie Rose 22:59
Because of partly because of its very kind of liberal politics and strong Catholic influence presence of the Catholic Church and conservative views within the Catholic Church, a very Catholic community and a kind of a and also a very liberal political community. So Boston at that time in the nineties, there were, you know, weekly protests in front of abortion clinics. There was people were on the pro and the con side were on the news, the pro-choice, pro-life, whatever were on the news. Like all the time. It was like a major part of the story that was going on in the United States at this time. And unfortunately, 

there were murders. There was a there was a man who claimed to be inspired by the pro-choice, pro-life side that went into a couple of abortion clinics and shot some employees, killed a couple of women, murdered several more. John Salvi was his name. It was a huge, huge story and was just a real moment of terror. There was a manhunt to catch him and it was just this awful, awful moment that took place in the late nineties, in the mid-nineties. And. 

There was a call for the rhetoric to be toned down. We gotta tone this down this camp. But both sides were sort of like blaming the other side for having 

Rich Bennett 24:19
Of 

Julie Rose 24:19
inflamed 

Rich Bennett 24:19
course. 

Julie Rose 24:20
and caused this, you know, and it was just a really awful time. Well, in the middle of this, when the community is grieving and in fear. Six women, three women who are leaders of the pro-choice. That's the term that they prefer movement. And three of the pro-life, their preferred term movement in Boston, where quietly approached by some 

by a couple of therapists who had been piloting this. Constructive dialogue concept in the area. They approached these women and said, Hey, we'd like to invite you to participate in a series of meetings with people from the other side. And all six of the women. And I actually in my in my episode about this, got to talk to two of the women, one on each side, all six of these women, you know, one of them was like the head of Planned Parenthood in the area. One of them was the head of Narrow, which is like the big like political arm of the pro-choice movement. Then you also had leaders. You had a pastor, you had a leader of a Kath, a the leader of the the Catholic diocese is pro-life efforts in Boston. Right. So these were the women that were out there leading the charge on both sides of their movement. They all of them said when approached, hey, you want to come to these meetings, They all said, no, What is the point? Why would we do that? My my supporters would never allow it. I don't see why I should sit down and talk to the enemy this way. I'm not going to change my mind. There's no common ground here on this issue. Because, you know, and and all of them said this, and yet they ultimately came around six of these women, a few of the other people that got it. You know, some people said no. And so they moved on to another person. But ultimately they ended up with six women, three on each side who agreed to at least a meeting. They agreed to four meetings. They're like, whatever. So we got to do something. They told me 

Rich Bennett 26:17
Right. 

Julie Rose 26:18
things I think they'd gotten so bad. They're like, We have to figure out how to bring down the temperature in this community because we can't have more murders, we can't have more death, we can't no more violence. So they agreed to meet in a basement. 

Blinds drawn. Complete secrecy was the rule, because all all six of these women knew that they would could not get away like that. Their own supporters would attack them, their own side would abandon them or withdraw funding if they if anyone knew that this was taking on. So. So they go into this meeting 

terrified. Of who 

Rich Bennett 26:57
Right. 

Julie Rose 26:57
they had never sat across from from these. And they none of them knew each other personally, even though they'd been in the news attacking each other's sides for, you know, for years. Right. Well, the long story short, the meeting, that first meeting was so transformative to them that they were like, this is interesting. Let's keep doing this. They agreed to meet again and then again and then again. Each time they would sit down and they would have a meal together and then they would talk and they were told they were coached by a mediator in the room, a moderator, that they they had to agree on common language that they could use, that everyone would be comfortable with what to call each other, what to call an unborn fetus, what to call a what to call an abortion. The actual, you know, process of it. Like all this stuff, they had to agree on language that they could all like stomach for their conversations. And they were instructed not to argue their side. Their job was not to counter or debate or try to provide any you know, all they could do was listen and ask, follow up questions as as the different women shared and they were focusing on. Here are the personal experiences that have shaped my view on abortion. Here is why I feel strongly about this. Here is here's here's what's happened in my life that has led me to this. Here are the things that I've seen that have shaped that, that helped me to feel so strongly about this. And the other women in the room, no matter how much they disagreed, could not say, Yeah, but or well, this is what I think they could only ask. Tell me more. Follow up questions. What did you feel in that situation? What else is there about that experience that you think has influenced you? Right. They were, which was completely counterintuitive to these women, 

but it changed them. They ended up doing this regularly, meeting in secret for six years. 

Six years to the point that but in secret, nobody except their spouses knew one of the women who wasn't married. She she she said that her assistant was convinced she was having an affair somehow because she was just like, disappearing. You know, this is a religious woman. You know, a religious leader, and she would just disappear to these secret rendezvous, you know, like every month 

anyway. Yeah. And finally, after six years, they decided that that they wanted to go public with what they had been doing. And the very interesting thing was that during this whole six years, when nobody knew that they were meeting, something had changed, the rhetoric had changed. There was no more violence. But also there were even, you know, like the Boston Globe was running op ads that were from the editorial board that was saying, like the rhetoric has changed. You know, the temperatures have they that both sides are speaking differently. They noticed that something was better, but nobody knew that it was because these women had become friends that had come to care for one another as as friends. And they could no longer go out and speak in the same dehumanizing, you know, way. And they now understood at the end of the day what they all said once they published in the Boston Globe this article in January of 2001, talking with the enemy. It was in the Sunday Globe opinion section, signed. They wrote it all together, all six of them signed by all of them, where they basically said, Here's what we've been doing, here's what we each believe. Here's also how this has fundamentally changed us as people and more and we wish that more people could have conversations like this. And this is why it's mattered and what it's done for us. None of these women changed their mind at all. Six years of listening closely to people you disagree with and nobody moved an inch on in their position on abortion. In fact, they became even more secure in their own positions. And here's why. They said, you know, because I asked the same question. I'm like, how can that possibly be? I mean, surely you would have like, I don't know. And they said they said and they also believed it made them better advocates. And this is kind of circling back to the thing you said that made me want you to tell you this story. It made them they said that they had never 

they had never listened so closely to the opposing view until they sat down and started having these meetings. They had spent all of this time as professionals shaping their own arguments and had not ever truly engaged the opposing viewpoint. In a careful, curious way. They'd always spent their time whenever they'd hear somebody from the opposing side. They were busy thinking of their own arguments and how they were going to counter. But by being forced in this exercise to listen carefully to the opposing view, they now had a much more detailed understanding of exactly how to make their points more effective in public. They became better advocates. They became better at debating in public and at countering viewpoints because they had spent so much time. They had gone to school in, you know, in the opposition oppositions viewpoints. They knew now on a deep level what mattered, what those views were. They they had. They had grappled with their own the weaknesses in their own arguments and formed stronger, stronger arguments in favor of their view so they were better able to advocate. And crucially, they were better able to engage on the issues without demonizing the people holding those issues. And that became the real difference out in public when they were. One of them told me a story of how during the process of all these meetings, somebody from the Planned Parenthood side and she knew the person like sort of personally from these secret meetings, but couldn't tell her staff member this. So an op ed gets published in the paper and one of one of the these is one of the pro-life people's staff members comes to her and says, hey, we're going to you know, I wrote this. I wrote this response that we should get published in the letters to the editor, to this op ed that got published. You know, and and and the woman who had been the leader of this organization had been in the abortion talks, looked at it and said, no, no, this is you're not engaging the the the actual you're not engaging the actual issue effectively. You're you know, we're just throwing talking points at them. We can get further if we really engage the issue. And also, we need to strip out all of this about like people who don't respect life and people who are, you know, whatever it is, like the more inflammatory language and really just talk about the issue. And that was because she knew the person who wrote it on the other side and she knew the person's heart. She knew that person's story. So that for me is like the idea that, you know, we can listen carefully with respect, we can we can see the humanity and the dignity in someone that we disagree with profoundly disagree with, 

and also continue to advocate for our side, to believe in our side, and to be better at advocating. It's just remarkable to me. And I just don't think that we realize the power of listening. We're just too afraid of it. 

Hmm. 

Yeah, 

it was. It really was in a basement of a house in a suburb where they would all arrive at different times and to not, like, attract attention and like, you know, it was very, very cloak and dagger. 

They. It was recorded, Yes. So you got to watch this movie, this documentary called The Abortion Talks. So so all of their sessions were recorded, but they were it was it was agreed that none of that audio would ever be made public unless all six of the women agreed to have it be made public. And the filmmakers went to the work to get some of that released. Not a lot, but there's just a little bit that there that they were able to agree on. That is included in the film. 

Yeah. When they're sort of grappling with do we go public or how do we go public about this? But yeah, yeah, I mean, then that's one of the things that you learn that this organization that sponsored this has has since gone on to create, you know, to to cultivate these community conversations all across the country. They're called essential partners. Highly recommend people check them out if they're interested in getting any kind of training. I've gone through some of the training that they have on how to have these dialogues and, you know, how to how to lead them. It's all, you know, accessible. They're a nonprofit. All their training materials are free. In fact, they have a whole, like, easy guide on. What's that? Yeah, it's online. Look for essential partners dot org I think is their address and they have community dialogue guidelines for actually even for abortion conversations that people would want to have or I know that they've done some stuff recently on Israel and Hamas and on the Ukraine war and like these difficult conversations that people need to have in their communities. And one of the keys that they have learned is that you can't just throw a bunch of people in a room who disagree and say, all right, we're going to we're going to sit here and get to know each other and we're going to talk about this issue. You have to have a framework. People have to feel safe. You have to have you have to have a structure that encourages listening rather than debating. And a lot of that has to do with taking turns and not only asking questions of a certain kind during a certain portion. It's a very structured thing, but that's really I mean, a lot of the research out there, you know, has found that. Especially right after I don't know, In the last 20 years, there's been a lot of stuff about, oh, like we should just get to people who disagree. You know, a Trump supporter and a Biden supporter together and just like, have a beer And they'll and, you know, and they'll change their minds. It almost always goes terribly. 

There has to be groundwork. There has to be a frame of mind. There has to be of some level of trust between the individuals in order for that conversation to take place. And there are some certain skills that we can cultivate as individuals to make us more likely to succeed in a scenario like that. But it's not enough just to sort of march in and be like, All right, I'm going to sit here and talk to my person that I disagree with deeply on all these things. It's probably not going to go well. 

Yeah, certainly. Certainly there is. I mean, one of the things that we do with top of mind, my goal is to help people kind of just get this tiny little practice with what I call sticking with it. This notion that and it's it's the moment for me, it's not about grit. It's not about sticking to your guns. It's about staying curious, staying open in that moment when everything inside of you, your natural threat response, is telling you to debate or lash out or shut down or be angry. And I have to use a lot of my like mindful breathing techniques to sort of because I can I can go from 0 to 60 very quickly in the fear and anger response. And I have to do to find a way to choose in that moment to stay open and curious and stick with the discomfort. I'm a I'm a I, I avoid. I don't like feeling uncomfortable. I don't want to be in uncomfortable conversations and situations. But we have to stay uncomfortable, stick with that discomfort. If we're going to get to this place of clarity, it is going to be uncomfortable hearing somebody express a position that you don't agree with and feeling like and not immediately trying to shut them down. To be able to listen with that discomfort is something that you and I as interviewers have to really practice. I mean, every time I do an episode on a topic, I will encounter a perspective where I'm kind of like, I don't know about that, or I really think you're wrong about that, you know? And I want to immediately, like, try to debate. But a lot of times it's not about fact checking them. It's just about me disagreeing with them. And I have to. So I've had to work really hard to practice staying uncomfortable in those moments. And so the podcast then is an opportunity for me to bring you along as the listener and go, Look, okay, I know, I know that this is an uncomfortable topic and I totally get you that it would be easier to go, I don't know, do your easy thing. That would be more comfortable, right? But this is we're going to get some growth here. And trust me that like the moment when your heart cracks open or your mind cracks open is exhilarating. So I'm going to spin this story for you. We're going to we're going to we're going to hear a lot of interesting perspectives and we're going to have a lot of, you know, engaging narrative and storytelling. And there's going to come a point where you're going to want to turn the radio off because you just really disagree with what that person says. Radio, CALLER Radio. I mean, your podcast, whatever. I'm still I'm still a radio person in my head. I know you probably are, too. Yeah, but hang on. Stick with it. Stick with the discomfort. Just keep keep listening. I'm going to keep you safe. We're going to You're respected. I see the dignity and you come along with me. It's hard for me, too. We're going to get to a place at the end of this hour together where you're going to feel some new empathy. And that's going to feel good. You're going to feel some new clarity or you're going to be fired up in a way that you haven't felt before about something that you want to go actively pursue. That's what empowerment feels like. That's the kind of news consumption I want. I want to encounter perspectives that are going to surprise me, help me feel new empathy, help me see a little more clearly where some possible progress could happen so that I'm empowered to say, Oh, gosh, I really need to go to learn more about this, or I really want to go talk to somebody in my life about this topic now that I know these things or I really need to focus more on this issue in my community than I have been focusing on. Right? That's what empowerment is to me is coming away from a new story, not feeling like, well, the world is terrible and everybody out there is awful and I don't know what we're going to do about it. But I think it's I think it's not going to be solved. Instead, I come away with a sense of like, there's something I can do at least to improve my own understanding of this issue and be a better member of my community. 

hmm. 

Yeah. 

No, it happens all the time. It happens all the time. And here's the thing that I love. It is it's great. And, you know, that's the beauty of podcasting. Exactly in live radio. You either heard it or you did it, and then it was gone away. Right. But in this instance, yes, there are podcast episodes still live on. And and they're actually still, incidentally, kind of airing on repeat on Sirius XM Radio, because we still do have a radio station. 

But you're hearing a lot. Yeah. So you can hear people will come along and be like, Oh, I just heard this. I'm like, Oh, yeah, that was from a year ago, but great, I'm so glad. But the thing I love, Rich that people will say to me, they'll they can't help themselves. They'll email me and they'll say, okay, it was a good, good episode, but you really didn't talk about this or you really didn't talk about this. And, you know, and and I love it when they say that because I want people to understand that it was just a 53 minute episode on this huge topic, and I'll probably cover it again from another angle later on down the line. But I wasn't looking to give you every perspective or every issue or have you think about everything. I just wanted to get you to that point where you're like, Yeah, but what about this? Or What about this? Or What about this? So I succeeded. The fact that you're reaching out to me with like, Well, she didn't cover this, and I really think this is important. Great. That is exactly what the podcast is for, is to get you in a space where you are thinking about those things, about what you think is important around this issue, and then you're going to go do the work to have those conversations to seek out more information or to advocate for that. And please let me know. I love it because I'm like, that's a good point. A couple of times people say like, Well, you really didn't look at this. I'm like, You're totally right. That would be a really interesting episode of its own. I'm going to do that, you know? So there's endless conversations to be had, but it has to start with curiosity. Otherwise you're just otherwise you're just spouting off into the wind and it's it's just not going to end well. I mean, if that's all you really want to do, then go be a politician and stand on the stump and speak out to the crowd all day long. But I think we have enough of those people. That's not me. And that's no disrespect to people who are running for office, which is a really important thing to do, especially on a local level. But the most effective politicians on a local level and the ones that I want to see are the ones who are just as good at listening as they are at debating and speaking their point. 

Mm 

hmm. 

Yeah. 

hmm. 

Yeah. What's 

yeah, what's really frustrating. And we're starting to see a couple of I think there's there's a lawmaker out of North Carolina who does some Tik Tok and Instagram. Now, I can't remember his name, but where he's. He's kind of a new he's a new member of, I think, the House. And he's sort of ruffled some feathers because he's online basically saying, guys, here's what I've learned by being in Congress for a year or whatever. He's like, people take really like very polarized public stances on issues. Oh, I could never see this. Or the Democrats are 100% wrong or the Republicans are 100% wrong on this issue. And in private, nobody is that black and white about their issues and they are all more moderate when they are in private. And and and we have created an environment because of the because of the way campaign finance works and because of the way, you know, cable news works and because of our own insistence on like, I can't trust government, therefore I need to know exactly what's happening at every moment. A lot of that has kind of come together to create a situation where 

politicians feel obligated to to to speak and behave publicly in a more polarized way than they actually are. And it gives us the impression that that's the only way to be if you're a a Republican or a Democrat. You know, I need to have as fully conservative or liberal views as the politicians who are leading our organization when, you know, crossing the aisle. And bipartisanship is the only way that anything gets done in this world that we live in, at least anything that's sustainable and not going to immediately get overturned when power shifts because there's an inevitable backlash to whoever is in power. You know, it's just really it's frustrating and it's complex. And for me, the thing I don't know how you feel about this. I know that you're when you say, hey, I'm going to interview people on both sides of, you know, both both both parties. Right. Well, 

politics makes us I think because we have this two party is like two very strong parties in America, which is pretty unusual, like most other countries have, like a lot of other kind of parties. And, you know, the boundaries are a little bit more fluid. But here we have the Democrats and the Republicans. And and I think it has it gives. 

It makes it easy for us in the public to think that there are only two sides to every issue. There's only the Republican on the Democrat side and on every single issue. In fact, sometimes people will say, I really like Top of Mind your podcast because you consider both sides and I immediately jump in. I'm like, okay, not to correct you here, but there are never two sides. I am actively against the idea that there are only going to be two sides and we're going to cover both sides. It is an every issue is more complicated. And if you think you know what the two sides are, then I'm going to spend 53 minutes showing you just how much middle ground is fluid and surprising because none of us is binary in our views. And I may feel like very predictably conservative about one topic, but I also am kind of more liberal. Predictably, on another topic, most Americans are like that, and the fact that we're walking around thinking that there are only two sides to every issue because we've sort of like learned that because cable news has taught us to that, you know, there's one side on the other side of the table. Are there? You know, the political debates have taught us there's only two sides has really been a disservice to us because it makes us it helps. It makes us not because we we don't know to be curious about the fascinating complexities that are going to exist in the grey area. 

Mm hmm. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. But so much of that. Oh, a many, many times I like to use the you know, I like to use the example of a of a car crash. Okay, so let's say it's a fender bender right in an intersection when I'm the reporter and I or the police officer and I go into this scenario to try to figure out what's the truth, what happened, while the story's going to be a little different, depending on who I talk to, if I talked to the person who was driving or the person in the other car or the passenger in each car, or the person who was standing on the sidewalk watching it go down, or the family member of the person who is now in a coma because of the car crash or whatever. Right. Like there's there's so many different perspectives because each of us 

each of us has lived our own lives and has and has and our perspectives are shaped by the life experience that we've had. And I have blindspots I do not know. There are so many things that I don't know what it's like. There are things that I can't see. I mean, I've had a lot of realizations about blind spots that I've had around the issue of race in the last five years. 5 to 10 years is I've been really trying to study this out because because I'm a white woman who was raised in a predominantly white community in a middle class household. And I do not know what it's like to live in a world where people see me and make judgments based on the color of my skin other than my white skin. I do not, you know, my interactions with the police have all been supportive and encouraging, and I have always been happy to see the police show up, except when they pull me over. But I never fear for my life when they pull me over. I'm just annoyed. Right? But there are people out there with a very different lived experience and I can't and it's an experience that I haven't been aware of until people started talking about it. And I'm like, That's a wow. I never were like, Why would anyone be? A Yeah, and that's natural. That's the beauty of human diversity is that we all have our own lived experience, but we have to remember that our perspectives are shaped by that lived experience and that we all have blind spots. And so just because I can't understand how you could possibly think something about an issue, 

it all all that suggests to me is that I have a blind spot and that what I need to do. And so I want to make sure that people have some have some like tips here. I don't want to just leave people thinking like, oh, well, the only solution is to listen to top of mind what would be great? Come check it out. But 

yet top of mind for Julie Rose. Check it out. We're on all the podcast platforms, but but there are some just very simple basic skills that have been kind of like entry level game changers for me in terms of both engaging with the news and also in having these kinds of conversations with people. And so the first thing that I would say is that when you find yourself thinking, how could someone possibly think X, Y, or Z and you're in either you're in conversation or you're watching it on television, or you're reading it in a news article or even on social media, when you when you catch yourself thinking no sane person would hold that argument in their mind, which we think, right? I mean, we're inclined to think that like, well, you must be an idiot or you must be ignorant or you must be crazy if you think this 

instead of catch yourself in that moment and ask yourself 

what life experience 

could lead me to hold that view. In what alternate world? 

What could I possibly imagine? Get creative here if you can. I mean, ideally you're sitting across from someone and then you ask the magic question, which is can you share an experience with me that has shaped your view on this issue? Don't ask. How could you think that? Or don't you know that that's stupid? Or don't you know that you're misinformed? Those aren't helpful. And they're not questions. They're just arguments. Instead of trying to counter it or correct them because clearly they're wrong. Right? Ask try to understand. Ask questions that will help you understand why they have come to hold that view. Is there an experience in your life that you'd be willing to share with me that has shaped your position on this issue? 

Ask. Try to understand the path that they've taken to get to that viewpoint. Because what you're what you're looking for is to try to understand your blind spot. There was a time where I was like, I can't understand why anyone would be afraid of the police. Right? Because my life experience, the police are always the good guys. 

Well, then I start seeing stories in the news. I start watching movies, I start reading books and start understanding, Well, gosh, you know, yeah, if my father had been pulled over and shot in a police encounter and he was black and we lived in a neighborhood where the police were constantly sort of stopping and harassing me, I would that I could say that's a blind spot for me. I could see how someone would be afraid of the police in a situation like that. Right. I'm not saying that all police are scary or that that's everybody's reality, but I could imagine holding that view now. Now that I understand that I've got this big blind spot. So you're just asking focus on the experience that the person's journey to hold that view rather than the view itself. Don't try to talk about the issue. The issue. Talk. Have a conversation about how the you and this other person came to hold your views. So ask them, Could you share an experience with me that has helped you, you know, that has shaped your view. This is what the abortion talks women did, by the way, that this was the whole key. And then and then maybe you could say, thank you for sharing that. That's really, you know, ask some follow up questions. I hear you saying, you know, that this is that this experience helped you to, you know, has led you. That's an experience I've never had before. Thank you for sharing that. That's something that I hadn't considered to me. Would you mind if I shared an experience that has shaped my view, you know, and then talk about there's a great one that I have in my on one in my in a podcast about perspectives that dropped a couple of months ago. Where were Monica Guzman, who is one of these people who who holds these who actually has written a book about how to disagree better? She talked about being devastated the night that Trump got elected because she was a liberal and she thought the world was ending and this was the end of democracy. And she called up her mother, who is who's an immigrant. So the families, immigrants, Monica came over when she was a kid. Her mom, her parents came over as adults from Mexico, and she called up her mom and her mom says, Monica, I need to tell you, I, I you see, this is the end of democracy as a terrible thing for democracy that Trump got elected. But I come from a place where no matter how you vote in Mexico, the elections were a sham. I never believed that my vote counted. I never believed that voting would have any effect. And I voted for Trump and he won. This is a victory for democracy. This shows me that my vote matters. You know, to a mother and a daughter who love each other with polarized views on this particular topic, seen it from very different perspectives because of the life experience that they'd led. And I think that that so that so we deepen our relationship and deepen our understanding. And if we can ask if we can focus on how someone came to hold that view, what in their life has shaped that for them, that's really powerful. 

Do I? 

I didn't let you get to that in a word in edgewise. 

Well, awesome. That's great. 

Mm. 

Well, you know, the truth is, I had another career for about eight years. I was in public relations, and that wasn't working for me. So I switched into. That's a whole nother story. I switched into, switched into radio, found my passion. I love radio storytelling and journalism. Let's see here. If I wasn't, if I if I had another career, I think I would be a lawyer, a constitutional lawyer. I really enjoy thinking about different ways to interpret the Constitution and thinking about different ways. So like arguments that the Supreme Court has and thinking about how they've interpreted and what court precedent means and how what certain rights mean. For me, I really enjoy having those conversations. So I think I might have gone I have briefly considered law school, but I, don't think I would have survived. So. 

Yeah. Mm. 

There's a lot in there that will surprise a lot of people because we think we know and there's just a lot that we don't know. Yeah. 

This is a, this is a source for a spot for me because Rich, I don't think I have anything really. Book worthy to say everything. All of the knowledge that I have dropped on you today is stuff that I have learned because other people have written books and done the done the hard work and done. And I've just been trying to humbly put it into practice and contribute to the to the, you know, to the body of work out there that can encourage people to provide helpful tools. But I'm not quite sure that I've got anything that's worth writing a book about. 

MM Well, let me tell you, if I need to just make a couple of disclosures here. If you want a guide book to how to have difficult conversations, read Monica Guzman's book It Is By My Bedside is a constant reference for me. Every time I have a terrible conversation with somebody, I'm like, All right, what did I do wrong? And I go back to her book. It is a guidebook. She's with Braver Angels, which is an organization that works on polarizing America. And her book is called I Never thought of it that way. I never thought of It That Way. By Monica Guzman. She also has a podcast, so go check her out. And the other book that I highly recommend is called High Conflict by Amanda Ripley, who's the author that I mentioned earlier. And that's a book that really helps us to understand why we get trapped so frequently in these polarizing toxic conflict situations when in fact, conflict can be a healthy thing that can help us get to more progress. So but before I write a book, I want everybody to read those two books, and then we'll see if I have anything more to say. 

Mm. 

That's so kind, Rich. Thank you. Thank you. 

Well, the podcast is my class. All right, So you can. You can enroll in my class and tune into top of mind. 

Sure. 

Yeah, 

absolutely. So the best way is the podcast Top of mind with Julie Rose were on all the podcast platforms. I read every comment. We're on social media as well, and we read, read and respond to every single one of those. So top of Mind Pod and I'm frequently on our Instagram reels on top of mind pod at top of mind pod offering little tips and like, here's, here's a thing you can go back through our reels and get a lot of the stuff that I've talked about here today, and then you can email me. Top of Mind at BYU dot I'd you we're a BYU radio production so yes yeah yeah yeah you know BYU Brigham Young University that's our we're located on the campus of Brigham Young University in beautiful Provo, Utah. So yeah, top of mind at BYU Dot Edu is how to reach us. Reach me. 

Hmm. 

I haven't done it an awful lot. I'm a much better interviewer than an interviewee. It turns out I have a hard time stopping talking like. 

Mm. 

Yeah. No, but here's, here's the thing. So I will say that one of the hardest skills to develop is active listening. The ability to hold both your own thoughts in your head and at the same time be listening intently to what the other person is saying. That's a skill. As an interviewer, that is really challenging to know. Kind of like, Here's where I want to take this conversation. Here's what I need to get out of this conversation. Here's my list of questions. But I'm also just like listening fully to who's talking and asking follow up questions. So I will say this. Here's what I will say. I do a ton of prep for every single interview that I ever do, and there was always at least one question that I really, really wanted to ask them that I ultimately don't get a chance to ask them because the conversation just doesn't go there. And we run out of time because I have been so busy just going where they're taking me, but going where with their knowledge, with their insight, with the stories that they're telling. And I have mixed feelings about this because sometimes I'm like, Well, dang it, I didn't get to ask this question, but I always have to think to myself, okay, why was that question so important to me? Is it information that I really needed or was it because I really wanted to be able to feel smart by asking it? Or was it because Because it's interesting to me, but it turns out it's not core to their story or it's not important to the listeners or it's not important to the story that we're telling. Most of the time in hindsight, that question that mattered so much to me and I finished the conversation and I'm like, Dang it, I didn't ask him this question. Most of the time it's because the question didn't need to be asked for the listener or for the context of the conversation. So yeah, 

it all depends. It depends on the topic. Every single guest, it's going to be different. There's some question on your list that you didn't get to ask me, and you're probably going to be like, Shoot, she didn't Let me ask this question. And for that I apologize. Rich, 

let's talk. 

Hmm. 

I have not been using good pods. I'm happy for reviews in all the places, though. I'll have to go check it out. I'm kind of new. In case you haven't noticed, I'm new to podcasting. We've only been doing this for two years. I'm still kind of a radio person in my head, so I'm learning from you. Right? You're the pro. 

Cool. Oh, cool. 

Love it. Well, I'm going to get on there. I'll be looking for the Rich Bennett and friends comments, and I'd love to be engaged there. Absolutely. 

Likewise. Thanks for your great questions. Thanks for the time.