Healing and Hope: Dr. Cristina Castagnini's Journey Through Eating Disorder Recovery

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation today. I am thrilled to have Dr. Christina Castellini, a distinguished psychologist and certified Eating Disorder special. Dr. Castellini, with over two decades of experience is the driving force behind Freedom to Wellness, where she offers unique insights and solutions for those grappling with food, weight and body image issues. She combines professional expertise with a deep understanding of the emotional and social aspects of wellness, creating a holistic approach to healing. Her work is a testament to her commitment to helping others achieve a balanced and fulfilling life. She is also the host of the insightful Behind the Bike Podcast, which you have if you haven't listened to it yet, you have to. With her extensive expertise and personal experiences, she sheds light on the complexities of eating disorders and body image issues. Her podcast is a beacon of support and understanding for those navigating these challenges. Featuring guests with diverse perspectives are, first of all, Dr. Kristina or Dr. Costantini or just Kristina. What do you like to go by? 

Cristina Castagnini 1:15
Well, Christina's great. Thanks for asking. And gosh, you're talking. And I'm like, Who wrote that? 

Rich Bennett 1:25
So it helps when you have assistants. No. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:28
I'm joking. 

Rich Bennett 1:32
So I want to I just want to dive right into this because I think this is a very important subject with eating disorders. And I mentioned before we started about mental health, how that's mental illness is on the rise. And I'm sure that eating disorders are, too, because a lot of times and correct me if I'm wrong, but it goes hand-in-hand, right? 

Cristina Castagnini 1:57
Well, oftentimes people have eating disorders. You're correct. They have another diagnosis, a co-morbid diagnosis of depression or anxiety. And, you know, it's interesting you say that there's always the question of is mental health on the rise or is it just that the stigma is kind of decreasing a little bit and people are talking about it more so people are more apt to open up and talk about as like. Which is which, right. 

Rich Bennett 2:21
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a hard thing because I do know, I mean, people are talking about it more. But I think during COVID, I think it has 

especially the teenagers. I think it's on a rise. And I'm seeing that. I'm seeing that sort of now. Yeah. I mentioned before we started recording how to do Santa Claus. And this year especially, I've had so many kids that were very shy or scared to talk to me. And some I brought up a good point that these are the COVID babies now. And they say, Oh, I never thought about that. So I think yeah, I think it is it's it's weird. But if you can tell us a little bit about your story and why how you got into this. 

Cristina Castagnini 3:14
Sure. Well, if you want to do the personal wrote, you know, I had my own eating disorder starting from a young age. You know, people ask like, oh, gosh, you know, 

some people have eating disorders and they think it's a lot about like vanity and dieting and this and that. And just to clarify, with everybody, like there are there's no one the root cause, right? So there's a host of things like genetics, social, you know, environment, family, life, personality. I mean, there's just a whole host of things like the world we're living in everything. 

Rich Bennett 3:51
Right? 

Cristina Castagnini 3:53
And, you know, looking back through my own therapy, I had to go through therapy to recover from my own eating disorder. And I figured out, like, my own stuff. But going through that whole process for myself, I realized I didn't have anyone in my treatment team ever who could look at me and say, Hey, you know what? I've been there. I understand what you're going through because when you go through eating disorder treatment, it's very scary. And people are asking you, you know, your treatment teams ask you to do a lot of things that are scary and that are counter to what you've been used to doing and letting go of control. So, 

you know, that's a big part of why I am a certified eating disorder specialist now. And. 

But that being said, I didn't actually want to treat eating disorders for the longest time 

because there's this, you know, message out there. I think that that was always in my head. I always wanted to help people and I always wanted to be in the mental health field. But there's always that thing, okay, You know, psychologists, therapists, they bring their own stuff into the room and they make it about themselves instead of their patients. And I never wanted to perpetuate that myth. 

But, you know, to the point I just said, I think it would have helped me along the way if I had had somebody who would walked the walk helping me through the process. 

Rich Bennett 5:11
And yeah. 

Cristina Castagnini 5:14
I did notice that when people did come in, I worked at a hospital for 15 years and we had to see everything that walked in the door didn't matter and and oh God, there was this one that people ask me like, Why did you flip? And I said, Well, there's this one patient that got to me, you know, when I do assessments for depression, one of the symptoms is either an increase or decrease in appetite. And when I got to discussing that with this person, 

they just started talking all this stuff. And if anyone's ever had an eating disorder, there's no like the way the mind works and the rituals and the routines and the way your life revolves around it is just something people can't understand unless you've been there. And there was just this knowing moment on her face and just this relief. And like 

and it was like she didn't have to explain anything. And it was just this moment where I like, Oh, okay, I think, wow, maybe I better change my mind. 

Yeah, Yeah. And she would have been diagnosed with depression, I think, instead of an eating disorder, which would have been, you know, down the wrong path for her at that time. Right. 

Rich Bennett 6:24
Right. But I think, too, with and I see this with peer recovery specialists and in the addiction world, if you've been through it, I think your island of patients is the right word or not, but are more prone to open up to you. 

Cristina Castagnini 6:44
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 6:44
Is that the same with the way you're what you're doing as well? Because you've been through it. It's they're more comfortable talking to you. 

Cristina Castagnini 6:52
I think it's that. And also there's also this myth out there with the eating disorders that nobody, you know, you never fully recover. You always kind of have it a little bit. And just for me to you know, when I had my now I do virtual, but when I had my office, I had a little figurine with the Hope bubble as a little balloon. And I said, you know, this represents something. I said, you have to hold on, hope that you're actually going to recover, because if you have it in the back of your mind that you're always going to kind of struggle with this. That sets the stage for where you're limitations are with treatment and recovery. And I think just having me say a, stick it out, I got you. You can recover. Look, I'm there. This is somebody looking at you who's made it to the other end. I think that helps people to stick with treatment and not just flip out. 

Rich Bennett 7:42
Right. So with eating disorders and this is where I get confused. So hopefully you can help me out on this one. Is there more? In other words, when I think of eating disorders, I think of it as somebody that is constantly trying to lose weight or is it like both somebody that just can't stop eating and is putting on the weight as well? 

Cristina Castagnini 8:05
So remember what I said. The people really do understand that. They think it's about vanity and dieting and weight. And actually what I try to say is, look, the eating disorder is not the problem. It's a symptom of the problem. Right. Okay. So first, let's start with a couple of things. One, the myth that you can look at somebody know, if they have an eating disorder, you can't and that you can't know which one they have. There's these myths out there that if somebody has anorexia nervosa, they must be like emaciated, skeletal. And that's just not the truth. People of all shapes and sizes and weights have all been eating disorders diagnoses. It's also the myth out there that people have like binge eating disorder. They're in a larger body. That's absolutely not true either. So that keeps people, I think, from going into treatment, too, because people often say, well, I don't look like I have an eating disorder or I must not have it because I'm not thin enough or I'm not sick enough. 

So, you know, because people like myself, too, I just thought, well, back in the day there wasn't much known about them, but I just thought I was failing at dieting. I just thought, oh my gosh, I don't have enough willpower. I'm not sticking to it well enough. Like I keep screwing up, which is the whole thing about diets. Like you're not they're failure. They're they're set up for you to fail, for you to feel bad. You never go. You. Absolutely. They just. No. 95% of people who start diets fail and then put the weight back on plus more over time so they do not work. Absolutely not. 

Rich Bennett 9:37
So, okay, now, well, I'm not on a diet. 

Cristina Castagnini 9:41
But. 

Rich Bennett 9:41
I went on to die before I did help. But put the way back on what? I mean, would they replace diets with. 

Cristina Castagnini 9:51
Well, well, let's go. The couple of things I want to go back to your question, then I'll get back to that. 

Rich Bennett 9:56
I'm sorry. 

Cristina Castagnini 9:57
No, no, no. There's I mean, it's interesting. There's so complicated, right? You can go down a different path. Yeah. That's kind of what happens. 

But people think it's really about weight loss and food and it's really about control. It's about numbing out. It's about feeling like you know, especially for teenagers or kids, right? It's like, I don't feel like I can control anything of what can I control? Well, in your house, you can control food, what you put in your mouth or not. Right. That's one thing, right? There's not a whole heck of a lot. You can. And a lot of times it's kids don't have the the communication skills, so they're communicating through their bodies right. Like, this is the pain I'm in. 

And also, it's about numbing out. When you're not eating enough, you don't feel anything. You don't have enough energy or fuel in your body to feel any emotions or to think clearly. So it's a great way to numb. But also, if you're, you know, turning to food for emotional reasons, it's a great way to numb out or distract yourself from all the stuff you don't want to feel or think about all the triggers, if you will, in your life. So that's to do things. But also, if when I ask people how much of your day is spent thinking about food or weight or what you're eating or what you don't want to eat or what you want to eat or what you look like, or looking in the mirror, the scale or whatever, you know, They'll say 80, 90% of my day is spent, consumed with all this, whether it's thinking about it or engaging in rituals, whether it's like, like measuring food or going to the gym or feeling guilty for what they just did, or I call it negotiating with Ed, like, okay, if I go to the gym, then I can eat this. If I don't, then I can't. 

Rich Bennett 11:33
Okay, I don't do that. 

Cristina Castagnini 11:37
Right. So it's the whole life is consumed by it. All of this. I mean, people have been even myself. At some point I got to the point where I wouldn't go on vacation unless the hotel had a gym. Right. Like, it gets all consuming. People will not go to parties because they don't know what food's going to be there. They're scared. It just it takes over everything. Right. And so it has nothing to do with weight or food. It's really about feeling like I'm in control of my life and I can't deviate. The anxiety skyrockets if something doesn't allow them to follow or the rituals or routines that they feel is in line with the eating disorder. 

Rich Bennett 12:17
Okay, that made me feel a little bit better now because I think about food all the time, but I'm thinking of like different recipes to try and stuff like that. Yeah, I always get scared there for a minute. What you said you're thinking about food all the day is like, Oh yeah, that's me. 

Cristina Castagnini 12:34
It's well, there's one thing to enjoy food and like, food. And, you know, I think that's normal. We're supposed to enjoy food. Food's great, right? And I certainly have gotten to the point now where I look forward to eating certain foods and go to certain restaurants. And if anyone would have ever told me, I would think that'd be like, what? But the way I think about food is so much different now. Now it's not, oh, my gosh, calculating the amount of calories that eat and how many minutes I need to go exercise or, you know, it's it's quite a different world. 

Rich Bennett 13:06
I never understood that. How in the hell can somebody figure out how many calories is in something they're about to eat? Well, especially if you're making you're putting together your own recipe. 

Cristina Castagnini 13:19
We'll see. This is the interesting right there is these apps, right? Like back when I was doing this, there was no Internet. There were no phones. Right. But we had these I remember this big red nutrition book that had every food on the planet in there and it had every, like nutritional, you know, like protein, fat, fiber of every food you can imagine. Right? And so I thought I knew everything about food, right? I knew every every apple was this many calories. And I mean, you think you know it all. Yeah. But then, you know, outcome these apps like my fitness power, you know all these things that people kind of punch in their food and then they get these calculations or if people want to say, well, I don't want to think about it, I'll follow this diet or whatever this influencer is telling me to eat what they eat in a day. I'll just follow what they do. And. 

Rich Bennett 14:08
Right. 

Cristina Castagnini 14:09
You know, it just gets obsessive, really. 

Rich Bennett 14:13
So what I'm here is basically don't do a Diet Digest, don't work, but learn how to, I guess, learn how to control what you eat. 

Cristina Castagnini 14:23
No, not at all. And you eat? I don't know. Well, so that's that's the thing. It's more about realizing it's not about the food at all. Is nothing. That's the behavior people see on the outside. It's a symptom of the problem. Okay. So it's you're like, why are you doing that? Why? Why are you numbing out? Why are you needing to distract? Like what? What are the triggers? Like what's really happening in your life? If you weren't thinking about food and engaging in all these behaviors, what would you be thinking about? What would you be feeling? What would be on your mind that you really have to face and focus on? It could be, you know, trauma from the past. It could be a really abusive relationship you're in. It could be low self-esteem, not feeling good enough. It could. I mean, it's a whole host of things, right? Everybody. Like I said, it's different, but it's really getting to everybody's why like what's really going on? And if you aren't going to engage in your eating disorder, thoughts and behaviors, let's deal with that stuff. 

Rich Bennett 15:24
Okay. So how does someone actually know if they have an eating disorder or just trying to be healthy? 

Cristina Castagnini 15:30
Well, that's a good question. Right. And it can be confusing because we live in this this society that really like pushes a lot of toxic diet culture messages so it can feel like, oh, everybody thinks this way and, you know, that's the norm and everyone's on a diet or everyone's this or everyone wants to look a certain way. So that just must be everybody. But it's different. And like I said, it gets nuanced to the point where it takes over your life and it can lead to the number of eating disorders are the number one deadliest mental health illnesses, right? They lead to death. They're scary, right? Yeah. And this is not a joke. 

Rich Bennett 16:11
So, yeah, I didn't realize that. 

Cristina Castagnini 16:14
So when we're talking about this, like I said, it's all consuming. So people like I said, they'll yeah, they'll skip out on sleep to wake up super early to go to the gym, say, or they won't go out to family events because maybe they're feeling embarrassed about their appearance or weight gain or they want to be home and, you know, have the comfort of the food that they turn to for emotional reasons or they don't want to go to parties, like I said, because it's going to not allow them to follow their food rituals or, you know, just like I said, it takes over their lives versus that doesn't happen if people aren't having an eating disorder. This again, this is disorder. It's it's disorder or disorder in your life. And yeah, it's dysfunctional. 

Rich Bennett 17:00
So with the exercise, guys, 

because that's another thing, especially with diets, they they're constantly pushing You have to exercise all the time too. And then you hear all the different types of exercises, whether it be, you know, walking, running. You don't do push ups. They're no good for you do planks instead of all this different stuff. Heat is can exercise and be unhealthy. 

Cristina Castagnini 17:27
Oh, my gosh, I have so many podcasts on this. Like, this is like one of my big things is I said, Who on earth tied exercise with food? Like, this is horrible. So if you look at what like, yeah, okay, they're not related like the purpose of exercise is not to lose weight ever, never ever on the planet. Like what on earth happened here? How did that? I don't know. But. Right. People don't realize. So when we talk about bulimia nervosa, people think, oh, that's self-induced vomiting, right? People eat a lot of food, they binge and then they compensate by throwing up. But that's not only the case. People compensate with the food that they ingested by lots of other things like they can over exercise to compensate. They can take laxatives, they can fast, they can do all sorts of other things. Right. And like for me, one of my ways I called it negotiating with Ed, one of my ways to compensate for the food I ate, no matter how much it was, was to go exercise it off because that was in my head. Exercise more, eat less. I took that to like an extreme because that's what the eating disorder does, is it takes things and it like 

exacerbates it. And it it you go to an extreme with it. And so it became this rule of if I eat this, I have to go. Something in my mind told me if I eat something, it's like sitting on my body waiting for me to go burn it off. And if I don't go burn it off like I had this big, huge fear that I was out of control. My body was going to be out of control. I had to control it. And again, that's what it was about. It it nothing to do with my weight. It had nothing to do with how I was going to gain or lose weight. It was about me distracting myself from other stuff that I didn't wanna deal with. If that makes sense. But I felt so in control of my life. Yeah, I'm in control. I'm exercising, I'm watching what I'm eating. And you know what? I had so little control in my life at that point, even though I on the outside, it looked like, Oh my gosh, I wish I had more willpower. I wish I was as healthy as you. I wish I could work out as much as you write, like I was getting all this praise, which is typical for people with eating disorders. It becomes your identity. It becomes like you get a lot of praise and a lot of pats on the back, right? So it's hard to let go of, right? Because it feels so good at one point, right? So it feels like I can't stop doing this for lots of reasons. 

But then because if you stop, then people will say like, I don't feel right. I get anxious, I get nervous like my days off. I'm worried. I'm constantly body checking. I gotta go check the scale. I got to go look in the mirror. I got to, you know, check myself against other people. It's just a horrible, horrible existence. 

Rich Bennett 20:09
Where and with what you do, you're strictly like, you know, I guess like a cancer or whatever. For people with eating disorders, correct? Well, not not a fitness coach or nutritionist or anything like that. Okay. Okay. So my question for you is, do you see this? And I'm sure it is a problem, but do you see a lot of people that are that have an eating disorder will go and consult with like a fitness coach? 

Cristina Castagnini 20:44
Yes. And that's that's my biggest thing right now with social media is. Mm. It's hard to tease out who is actually 

out there influencing people saying, oh, you know, I'm helping people with emotional eating, I'm helping people overcome their issues with food and if you really look into like deep dive into their profiles, into what they're saying, they're actually really promoting diet culture and they're really promoting people to control their food, in my opinion, get sicker. Um, and it's hard to tease out because it's, it's, you know, I know I look online a lot of times just to see what's out there because I had a whole host of teenagers at one point coming to me saying the same thing over and over and over again. I was like, But they were all from like different areas of California. And I was like, What is happening? Something's out there on the media and it must be going around like Tick Tock or Instagram or something. And sure enough, there were like this live and influencer is talking about this. I won't say the exact number because it's triggering for some people, but they were saying you only need to eat X amount of calories a day. And it was such a low amount, it was like starvation level and it was scaring me. And what these influencers are doing was showing like, this is what I eat in a day. And so these teenagers were thinking, This is all I need to eat. And then if I eat more, it's too much. But the the issue is too. When I was looking at this, these posts, these people were showing themselves in bikinis and scantily clad clothing and like, you know, basically enticing them like, hey, if you do this, you can look like me, too. And I'm thinking that's that's not what doctors do. That's not what therapists do. That's not what providers do. Like, that's that's one red flag for people. If somebody is like promoting themselves and a way to eat in a way to live your life and they're showing themselves off in like bikinis, like yeah, promoting their weight loss and this and that, That's like, yeah, that's enticing, right? They want you to buy their program or their whatever, but and to get more clicks so that they can get, I guess I don't know how that all works with I guess they get more money and they have more followers, whatever. But think about that for a second. Yeah. Like that's. 

Rich Bennett 23:10
Scary. 

Cristina Castagnini 23:11
Yeah. The mentality is, oh, if they look like that and they're following it, I can look like to that too. If I just do what they're doing and think about that, like that's that person, that's what they look like, Maybe they could like be on that app and like do something to alter their body or the way they look. So if you don't end up looking like that person after you follow what they're doing, you're going to feel like the failure. Oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? How come I don't look like that after I followed everything they just told me to do is horrible. 

Rich Bennett 23:43
And a couple of those influencers have passed away. 

Cristina Castagnini 23:46
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 23:47
T is probably because of that. 

Cristina Castagnini 23:48
Yeah. And that's the scary part too. 

Rich Bennett 23:50
But these people don't right? But these people will go and follow somebody else instead. I mean, they need to wake up. They need to wake up and look and realize, no, it's not safe. It's it's unhealthy. Another thing that, oh, God, this 

this always bugs me to 

the BMI. You explained that because, oh, my gosh, 

I made 

BMI because I BMI all different then. All right. All right. I'll put it this way. So like me and somebody like Dwayne Johnson could weigh the same, but his BMI is good. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Somebody could have the same BMI as me, but I'm overweight and they're not. 

Cristina Castagnini 24:45
So. 

Rich Bennett 24:45
Okay, You said what's best to use to predict or affect your health. 

Cristina Castagnini 24:49
Yeah. Let's discuss. I don't know why. 

Rich Bennett 24:52
You should have that. 

Cristina Castagnini 24:53
You good? Good. Because you should be. Because I'm confused. Why it's still in existence. I don't understand it. We know this is not a measure of health. We just know that. Look, in the 1800s, some statistician was asking, okay, a European statistician from this little little town in Europe. Right. Belgium, I think I was was asked, could you give me the average height and weight of the people that live in this town 

in the 1800s? Okay. So he gave the average height and weight of the people that lived in this one town in Belgium from the 1800s. And I do not know how this became the BMI and like like brought over here and used as like, oh, you're either healthy or not based on this stat statisticians like numbers. Yeah. What? Like it doesn't even make sense, right To your point. Like I know if you look at people from different cultures right across time, people have different bone structures. They have different like, I mean, people like I lived in Hawaii, people who were from like Samoa look very different from people who are in like China, right? They just the height wise to write like you can't compare people who are athletes. Right. They have a lot more muscle. Someone at five five who's an athlete, who's pure muscle, who's training like obviously if they're an Olympian, they're in great health. Right. I would imagine that's their job, really. But someone at that same height who maybe doesn't have as much muscle, who weighs a lot less than the BMI, who they're deemed much healthier, doesn't make any sense. 

Rich Bennett 26:35
No, it does. It actually gets me because you look at look at sumo wrestlers. 

Cristina Castagnini 26:41
I think they're. 

Rich Bennett 26:43
Huge. But some of them have are do they look like they're in great shape? No, but some of them are. Yeah. You look at some of like your power lifters. Some of them have huge guts, but their cardio is amazing. And I never understood the BMI thing. It just I can't remember the Nintendo. We had that board you stand on. 

Cristina Castagnini 27:13
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:13
So I got the board and I was sitting up for the kids and I didn't realize it was going to tell me my BMI and it thing just came on and told me I was obese. I was about that word activation. 

Cristina Castagnini 27:25
Of, Yeah, I was, Oh boy. Well, I look like, what the hell, I'm not obese. 

Rich Bennett 27:32
Come on. You know why we mean, why do you hate that word? 

Cristina Castagnini 27:37
To stigmatize business people, right? I mean, do you hear that? Yeah. Who feels good after hearing that word? And what does it even mean? Listen, I mean, it does. We live in a toxic world where, you know, the toxic diet culture says if you are in a thin ideal body, you have more value, more worth. You're like more desire, you're more attractive, your health healthier. Right. And if you're not, what? What does that mean? You're demonized, you're lazy, You're like all these negative things and it's horrible and it's not even true. Like we have so much value and worth as people based on so many other things. And you know, you can be healthy at any size. It's true. You know, I have to like I said, I worked at the hospital for 15 years and I would get so infuriated with some of my physician colleagues because I would send patients I knew who had anorexia nervosa, say, you know, and again, you know, I said earlier, like people in smaller bodies didn't always have anorexia nervosa, but in some cases they were in like what, unquote, doctors would look at and say, you know, the weight, stigma, oh, you they look great, right? And they would answer, Yeah, I exercise every day. I'm eating whatever fruits, vegetables to the doctor. But right, right. Keep it up. You look great. Right? But they would not ask for their questions, even though I said, look, please send them for labs, EKG, something. Why? They look great. They're healthy, they're exercise and they're eating great. But then the stigma was such that they'd be like, They're fine and they wouldn't send them for extra testing or labs, which is to their detriment because they were actually very ill and very sick. And counter to that, I would have other patients who were seeing me who did not have eating disorders. Maybe they had anxiety or marital problems, right. But they'd go for their annual physical and because they were in larger bodies, the stigma worked for them in another way, where the doctors were convinced they must have high blood pressure, they must have diabetes, they must have some kind of something going on. So they'd get sent to the labs and for tests and I can't believe it. Nothing's wrong. They're fine like all that. Everything came out like normal, stable, like, I don't understand it. And it's like, Well, how can you not understand it? You can be healthy at any size. It's your weight bias that's creating this problem. And people don't want to go into the doctor if they're going to be talked to about their weight when nothing is physically wrong with them. Like who wants to go to the doctor? You got 10 minutes with the doctor and you're going to get a lecture about your BMI, or you need to exercise more and lose weight when you don't know what somebody is doing. A lot of people I work with in larger bodies are moving every day. They are eating in non disordered ways. They're turning to food for there's just in larger bodies. Genetically they are perfectly fine, but that's not what society tells them. Oh, you must be doing something wrong. You must be eating too much, you must be lazy. Well, who says 

right? 

Rich Bennett 30:43
So I with with your practice, if somebody comes to you of an eating disorder, let's say they're they're just losing weight very fast and not even trying. Do you have the ability to send them for blood work working all. 

Cristina Castagnini 30:59
So yeah, if I mean if somebody is coming to me, like I always look at the medical first because that could signal a lot of other different things. It could be a thyroid problem. It could be I mean, it could be something else. Other than a mental health issue. Right? I was trying to rule out something medical first. So I say, listen, I want you to go see your primary care physician. I want you to get labs. I want you to you know, my son consents and we talk back and forth. Okay. And because eating disorders do have an effect on the physical body, I do that anyway. So I usually have an approach. I usually have a physician, maybe a psychiatrist, maybe a nutritionist. It just depends on the person. But that's first and foremost, making sure we know what's going on on the inside, too. 

Rich Bennett 31:42
Okay. And the reason I ask it was because with a lot of veterans, I don't know if you see veterans or not, but, you know, because of that French water from Camp Lejeune, a lot of the things that it has been causing, you're seeing a lot some of them are having rapid weight loss. I don't know why, but I'm not sure. I don't know if you've actually dealt with any veterans like that or not. Hopefully not. 

Cristina Castagnini 32:09
It's been a while. 

Rich Bennett 32:10
And if you have, I'm sure you and yeah. 

Cristina Castagnini 32:12
It's you know, I've had a few that wanted me to see them and I'm just going to be honest. It's a really difficult to navigate the paperwork to be authorized veterans. And that's frustrating to me too, and to them. So I know what that's about. But yeah, it's a kind of a navigating nightmare. 

Rich Bennett 32:33
All the stuff we have to go through just to see anybody is ridiculous. But that that's a whole nother part. I guess, is can you actually discuss the importance of holistic approaches in treating eating disorders and related issues? 

Cristina Castagnini 32:50
Yeah, you know, I think, like I said, not everything works for every person. And so, you know, I look at everybody and I say, like, we're going to meet you where you're at and 

it just like I said, it depends on like sometimes people need a nutritionist on board. Some people don't. You know, sometimes people find that triggering it reminds them too much of like a diet. And sometimes you can incorporate a spouse or a loved one or a friend or family or not. Sometimes the families are part of the record, so you don't want to involve the family, or sometimes you do because they are 

you know, sometimes people are more spiritual and they you're going to have to talk a little bit more about like less like when I would like 

structured kind of therapeutic stuff and more about like their spiritual selves. And, you know, it just again, it depends on the person and what they're really needing. 

So I don't know if that makes some sense to you, but like, yeah, it just depends. There's not like some cookie cutter approach for everybody. 

Rich Bennett 33:55
There's All right, all well, and that's just when I think when you're talking holistic, there's so many different things you could do. 

You know, it just I know with me, one of the things I love doing is the aroma therapy. Mm hmm. And but that just not not an eating disorder. But yeah, with with my yeah, when I was going through anxiety and everything. Yeah. That just. It just makes you so calm. Yeah, of course. Some things, like if it's peppermint or cinnamon makes you hungry, but. 

Cristina Castagnini 34:27
It's. 

Rich Bennett 34:29
Actually how. How has the landscape of eating disorder treatment evolved during your career? Because you said maybe you've been doing this for how long now? 

Cristina Castagnini 34:41
A long time. 

Rich Bennett 34:42
Say 20 years. 

Cristina Castagnini 34:43
Plus. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 34:46
Yeah, I find that hard to believe, but. 

Cristina Castagnini 34:47
Okay, 

well, let's put it this way. Yeah, well, I. I was at the hospital 15 years. I, you know, I left four years over four years ago from there, and then I was seeing patients even before that. So, yeah, 

long time. 

Rich Bennett 35:10
Wow. Okay. I still find it hard to believe, but I forgot my question already. Oh, the landscape. Now, how has the the eating disorder treatment evolved during your career? 

Cristina Castagnini 35:22
Um, 

it's been promising in my perspective, I guess. Like I said, as someone who had an eating disorder, you know, before and again, I'm kind of dating myself now, but there wasn't a lot of information. All I really knew was that Karen Carpenter died of an eating disorder, and that was kind of about it. And there were some after school specials really showing the stereotypical stuff about eating disorders, and that was about it. There are so much more information now. There's so much more discussion about it, which I think is fantastic. And there certainly wasn't the so the organizations and associations that I'm part of now, there wasn't a certification for being an eating disorder specialist. There's a lot more research, There's a lot more out there. And, you know, as much as I kind of have this love hate relationship with social media and the Internet and all, I think it does help spread awareness and information. So, yes, that's the part I do like about it. And again, you know, there's a lot of us out there who are passionate about helping people that, you know, we're very we get drowned out, unfortunately, by the toxic diet and beauty industry. There's $76 billion industry for a reason right there. They prey on people's insecurities. That's why they make money. So those of us who are trying to get the right information out there and counter all those messages or, you know, we're quieted in comparison, but, you know, it'd be nice if we could be a little bit louder and get our voices out there more. 

Rich Bennett 36:59
Something very important. And I want my listeners to really focus on this next question because 

I'm sure all of us have seen or even know somebody who's got a eating disorder. What are some things that you should never say to someone that has an eating disorder? 

Cristina Castagnini 37:21
Okay, 

I know one thing that's very triggering is if you say, Wow, you look really healthy. 

People are surprised by that. But that is a huge trigger because what the eating disorder here is, is, oh, gained weight. You look quote unquote fat, which is like that's going to be a huge trigger for someone just to go and engage in very restrictive behavior 

to to make comments about what's on their plate, like, oh, what are you eating? Or wow, that's a lot of food. Or while you eat like a bird or any like it's very scary for people, especially in the holidays, to go to family functions or holiday events because there's this anticipation of, oh my gosh, I'm going to eat in front of people or people are going to look at what I'm eating. And so the best moments about what people are eating or what's on their plate, the better are also comments about appearance. You know, again, just the fear of people if they've if in their mind they feel like their appearance has changed or the way it's changed, that's the last thing they want to hear is like, oh my gosh, like, you look amazing. Oh, because the pressure's on. Then at that point, like, oh my gosh, I got to maintain this, right? Or if it's opposite, like, Oh, I'm. 

Rich Bennett 38:39
Just all about all that. 

Cristina Castagnini 38:40
Yeah. Or, you know, I just love you and I'm worried about your health. Is there anything I can do to help or I just tried this. Just maybe you can try it too, or any of that kind of stuff. It's really triggering. Mm hmm. 

I could go on, but, like. 

Rich Bennett 38:56
I never even thought about that. Yeah. Another question that I would like to ask you, and I think this is when we talked about teens earlier, especially after COVID, but there may be some parents may not know what to look for. What are some signs to look for that somebody either has an eating disorder or could be going that way to have having one. 

Cristina Castagnini 39:25
So if you're noticing you're making your kid lunch and they're bringing it home and a lot of it's not eaten and they're like, Oh, I'm just I wasn't hungry today. If they're starting to wear really baggy clothes a lot and you can't see their body either hiding if they're saying they're cold a lot 

and that's not usual for them. 

If you noticing it like meal time, if you eat meals together, they're kind of playing with their food. They're cutting it up in little pieces and kind of playing around with the food to make it look like they're eating, but they're not. That's kind of hard and nuanced because a lot of times parents are really looking at their kids eating. But I kind of notice like, yeah, you know, it looks like they're eating, but they're really not. 

If you start to notice, like after meals, they go to the bathroom like within 10 minutes and they're kind of in there for a while. That's something else to notice. And 

if, you know, you just notice that they're the way they eat. What they're eating is changed a bit. If they're like now no longer eating certain categories of food, like maybe they used to love, like, I don't know, ice cream or I don't know, sandwiches or whatever. And like all of a sudden they're like, Right, no longer eating certain a certain food group. Like a lot of times carbs are bread or I'm no longer eating this. Just things to notice out like for that interesting. 

Rich Bennett 40:54
I'm glad I ask that because now I there's some people I have to look at now and then. Right. So if parents do come across that, what's what should they do? Because again, you got to watch what you say. 

So what? Well, of course, I know the one thing they should do is contact you right away. But because you do virtual as well, right? 

Cristina Castagnini 41:21
I do. 

Rich Bennett 41:23
Okay. So what is something that, you know, parents could do if they see that, you know, their child is doing some of this stuff? 

Cristina Castagnini 41:32
Well, you know, and I have teenagers, too. So, you know, anyone who's got a teenager, you know, that they're kind of in that stage, especially if they have an eating disorder, you know, they're not going to be like, oh, yeah, this is what I'm doing. And it's just for anybody. Look, eating disorders are very shameful. They're embarrassing for any age. So if someone comes up to somebody is like and asks about it, the last thing anyone's going to do is probably divulge it unless they're really at that point where they're just like, Oh my gosh, here 

I would just approach somebody and say, Hey, you know, if anything's on your mind, if you're going through anything you want to talk, just let me know, okay? You're kind of down a bit if know you're stressed out or whatever, just know I'm here for you. That could be just an opening of the door to like, 

letting them know, Hey, I notice something's off. 

Rich Bennett 42:28
Right? 

Cristina Castagnini 42:29
You're getting real concerned, you as a parent. You know, the good news is, if they're under 18, you can you know, bring them in for treatment and help after the 18. You can't, which is more scary. You could just say, hey, you know, you got to go for a physical, an annual physical with your doctor. If you're really scared that, like, their appearance has changed, you're noticing they're like maybe sleeping all the time. Their low energy, maybe they're feeling great. Something to the point where you're like, I'm really concerned about their physical health and well-being. At this point. I would bring them in for a checkup and just check like blood pressure, you know, electrolytes, things like that, and knock on their point with them, say, you know, maybe have the doctor alert their doctor a little bit. Like I'm really concerned. Maybe they can talk to them a little bit and see what's going on. They might talk to somebody else instead of you. 

Rich Bennett 43:22
Okay. Have you thought about writing a book at all? 

Cristina Castagnini 43:26
I have, actually. I'm 

it's been my my goal. I've been really busy, but I actually just like putting a little some a proposal down a little bit. So, yeah, this is kind of been my thing. Yeah. It's funny you asked. 

Rich Bennett 43:42
Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know that. That's good. I Me too. I'm. I'm the same way. That's one of my goals is to get one done. And you also offer a course, don't you? 

Cristina Castagnini 43:54
I do have a free nine week email course. And to your point, people like, ask, Well, how do I know if I have a disorder? Yeah, eating disorder or not or what's going on? This it's not going to diagnose you. It's not going to tell you if you do or don't, but it's going to help you kind of navigate life. Maybe I can go talk to somebody and really kind of figure this out. And my guess is that most people who ask themselves that question probably do, because you don't really ask that question unless you're struggling. 

Rich Bennett 44:23
Right. But this is also the course is is something that maybe even the parents could sign up for, too, if they have, you know, a child that they think may have an eating disorder. 

Cristina Castagnini 44:36
Yeah. I mean, if you if you do it as a parent, I would try to like, of course, not going to know your child's whole mind. Right. Right. But maybe try to like put. Okay, if if I were to answer for my child, like, what would I answer? Maybe it could give me some information. 

There's also 

and, you know, I could probably find it for you. And just off the top of my head, I'm sorry, I'm blanking, but I did. It's a wonderful woman on my show who started an a support group online for parents who just wanted and needed information about eating disorders. Her daughter had an eating disorder and she this was a long time ago. She had no resources, no information. She's an amazing person. Nancy Clarkson. And so she came on and talked about all of that. And so I can forward you that podcast if you want it for the show notes for parents. 

Rich Bennett 45:33
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Anything to help people. Real quick before I get into talking to you about your podcast with tell everybody your Web site. 

Cristina Castagnini 45:46
Okay. So most of. 

Rich Bennett 45:48
Them, unless there's more to do. 

Cristina Castagnini 45:50
Know my private practice, which is freedom to wellness counseling. 

So that's freedom to wellness dot com. And then my podcast which is behind the bike podcast dot com. 

Rich Bennett 46:04
I I have a funny feel and I know how but how did you come up with the name for the podcast? I love it. 

Cristina Castagnini 46:09
I think I was really trying to think, you know, we were talking about what our eating disorder is about and it's like really? What's behind that? Like what's behind the eating, right? It's not about 

eating at all. It's not about the food. It's like what's behind it, right? So that's kind of why I came up with it. 

Rich Bennett 46:29
And why did you decide to start a podcast? 

Cristina Castagnini 46:33
So I was going a little stir crazy at the hospital. I was feeling like I was spinning my wheels. I was there for 15 years and I wanted to reach my 15 year mark because that was like a like a you could kind of like reach your retirement, if you will. I reached it and I said, You know, if I'm going to leave, I want to do this is not I didn't go into this field and start my career to just sit in these same four walls for 15 years. I really want to have an impact and like help people for real. So if I'm going to leave and make this big jump, I want to do more. And so I didn't quite know what that was going to be, but I left and it was just one hit. Three months later, the pandemic the Okay, Hi. 

Rich Bennett 47:22
Everybody loves the podcast. 

Cristina Castagnini 47:24
Well, I had been planning on it anyway because I'd been working with a business coach for a long time and like, actually, like, not go bankrupt, right? Because that was scary. Single mom with two kids and I'm like I had the most secure, stable job with all these benefits. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, what am I doing right? And then my office building closed and I'm like, Nobody had done virtual therapy ever. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. Oh, God, right. Freaking out. And it was like 3:00 in the morning. And I had been talking. My coach is like, just grab your mic, record a podcast. And I'm like, Oh, I do remember this. It was three in the morning. I had all the equipment and I'm like, Right now, this is it. I'm just doing it. And like after that it was that was it. So. 

Rich Bennett 48:15
Well, of all, kudos to you because you started during COVID and you're still going because there were a lot of people that started to podcast during COVID and a lot of these podcasts are no longer around. 

Cristina Castagnini 48:28
That's true. 

Rich Bennett 48:29
I, I don't I don't know if you ever heard the numbers I think was before COVID. There was, I want to say 700,000 podcast out there. 

Cristina Castagnini 48:38
Oh, wow. 

Rich Bennett 48:39
And then yeah, and then COVID hit. Everybody got onto the bandwagon. I think it went up to like 7 million or so, and now there's a little over 3 million active podcast. It's a lot to a lot of people don't realize it when they get into It's a lot of hard work. 

Cristina Castagnini 48:55
It is. 

Rich Bennett 48:56
You know. So how many episodes in are you now? 

Cristina Castagnini 48:59
I go into, let's say a lot, 200 around you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And as many as you. 

Rich Bennett 49:08
You drop weekly, right? 

Cristina Castagnini 49:09
I do. 

Rich Bennett 49:12
Okay. Good, good. Since day one, you were dropping weekly? 

Cristina Castagnini 49:17
Yeah. 

Oh. 

Rich Bennett 49:22
So you people listening that want to get into podcast and. Okay. Christina did it right. Unlike me. 

Cristina Castagnini 49:29
What did you do? You're amazing. 

Rich Bennett 49:32
Oh, when I. When I. When I started out, I started in 2015. I started do I was once a month. That's all I did. And then after a while moved locations, a lot of stuff happened and then I went to once a week. But I was sporadic too. Like I never knew when I would just drop an episode whenever, you know, I did have a set schedule. And now every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. 

Cristina Castagnini 49:59
Oh, wow. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 50:00
Yeah. Continuously. Yeah. So yeah, I'm a I forget what I think it's like 500 some odd episodes. I don't know if not, it's close to 500, but I love it And I, I found and I'm sure you've because you have guest on your show right. Yep. So I found it's like a it's like you're networking but not really networking if that makes sense. 

Cristina Castagnini 50:29
Yeah, it's. 

Rich Bennett 50:30
Because you're meeting a lot of great people and it's, it's just amazing Amazing. And some of them, you know, I've had on more than once some of them we've had have come back and we've done, you know, roundtable podcasts. Actually, I think you may have been on I think you may either you may have been on 

the One show or. Eric DeRosa. 

Cristina Castagnini 50:58
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 51:00
Okay. Okay. Okay. Because he I was introduced to him and then he came on my show. We before that he joined one of our mental Health Roundtable podcast, the first virtual one we did. And of course we got to do another one before him and a couple of others yell at me. So but with, with the podcast, because I get people contacting me all the time about when to start a podcast, what was your biggest struggle or what is your biggest struggle? Well, besides time. 

Cristina Castagnini 51:31
Yeah, I think the biggest one. Well, there's there was two. One was the debate. Why I hesitated was I come from a personal and and professional perspective on mine. So I think they're both important. And so my biggest hurdle in the beginning was telling my story because people didn't know me from anybody. I'd been in the private sector in the hospital for forever in my career. And so it was like, okay, who am I? Like, How am I going to build trust and rapport with people? And I really needed to share my story and my journey. But as a therapist, that's a no no. Like you are like the doctor. You don't come out and share your stuff. And then I was going to have like family here, this patient here, this people I didn't know hear this. Like, that was a little nutty and a little scary to be like, Okay, am I doing this? Yeah. Okay. And then to know that was my perspective to be like, okay, I'm going to just divulge this throughout the podcast, like my stuff and like my struggles to Oh, 

that's different, right? So patients listening, they're going to keep hearing my stuff, but I think that's powerful too, in some degree. But, you know, it's again, as therapists, we're trained, you are private, your stuff's your own right. So that was one struggle. And and I think sometimes, too, it's hard because it is weekly. You know, I also have a full private practice and my mom got other stuff going on. Sometimes it's hard when just to book people and rely on the schedule. And then if somebody cancels or something happens to be like, Oh, like I got to like scramble and get this out and like, meet the deadline. And you know that sometimes that's that's the hard part. But thankfully, that doesn't happen out there. 

Rich Bennett 53:26
Do you read it? Do you do the editing and everything yourself? 

Cristina Castagnini 53:29
No, I think, you know, if I had to, I probably would. You know, if I had to, I probably would not get it out weekly because I don't have enough time for that. 

I do sometimes. Like if there's things where I'm like, I know it's going to trigger some of my listeners. I will go through the whole episode and I will take, you know, tell people who do do the sound editing like, let's take this word, let's do this, because I don't want to trigger the listeners. I do that on purpose. So like, sometimes that does take an enormous amount of time because I have to go through the whole thing. And if you're recording for an hour or so, that's a lot, right? So I do want to I do want to listeners in that sense, that's that's the time consuming part. 

Rich Bennett 54:15
Okay? And I say if you didn't have anybody anything, you got two teenagers. You could have one of them. Do. Yeah, 

I'm just saying. 

Cristina Castagnini 54:27
They they do other things for me, right? You know? 

Rich Bennett 54:31
Okay. I know for the longest time I had my daughter record the intro years ago and she says she hates to hear her voice. So when I changed the name, I asked her to record a new Ensure you know that I don't want to. I don't like to hear my voice on there. It's like, 

okay, so I had to find somebody else. 

Cristina Castagnini 54:51
And so you didn't do it. 

Rich Bennett 54:54
My intro. No, I actually have one. One of my cohost does it. 

Cristina Castagnini 54:58
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 54:59
Yeah, she does the intro and but I do have to give my daughter credit because we did another mental health roundtable discussion discussion in person and I asked her if she would come and take some photos. So she did. Which the funny thing is she sat down at the table the whole time taking pictures, but then she joined in on the conversation 

edged. I guess she didn't. She was just I guess so wrapped up in the discussion, didn't realize we were recording, I guess. I don't know, because later on when I told I said, Well, you did very good. You talk to her, she goes, Oh, are you? Keep that in there. Oh it's like, yeah, you, you offered a lot. 

Cristina Castagnini 55:43
So that's great. 

Rich Bennett 55:45
What's, what's with your podcast. 

What's the one thing that you haven't achieved yet that you would like to achieve with it and also with your business? 

Cristina Castagnini 56:00
I have not figured. I mean, it's been my passion project, right? 

Rich Bennett 56:04
Right. 

Cristina Castagnini 56:05
So, you know, I'd like to figure out, well, like, you know, you have sponsors. I haven't figured out how to do that part yet. I haven't really actually megahed anything other than that. So 

I know people. 

Rich Bennett 56:17
Do that afterwards. 

Cristina Castagnini 56:18
Okay. I mean, people have said you need to kind of make it more. And I have just looked at it like meeting colleagues and getting the word out and trying to break myths and, you know, do that part. So I never really looked at it as part of anything that was like a business aspect of things. It was just more of like, okay, how do we how do we get information out there about eating disorders? So I guess people keep saying, you got to make it more. So you need to figure that part out. 

Rich Bennett 56:50
And what about with the business. 

Cristina Castagnini 56:53
And 

I think I would I would like to run more groups because I think they're powerful. I tend to do the 1 to 1. I have one group that's been running for a while, but I think there's power in getting people together and talking and having them relate and realize they're not alone in this. So it's kind of dicey getting, you know, people are busy and so just trying to get more groups going for people so they can get the support. And it's also a more cost effective way to get help other than the 1 to 1. I think that mental and fortunately mental health in our 

you know, in the United States is not covered by a lot of insurance companies and it's it's not very accessible. So if I could run groups that's more affordable for people, that would be more beneficial. It could reach more people and help them. 

Rich Bennett 57:42
So that'd be great. That'd be really great. So before I get to my last question, 

is there anything you would like to add? 

Cristina Castagnini 57:55
Anything I would like to add? Um, 

I would just say, you know, if you're on social media 

and you're getting triggered, like what I mean by that is like you're feeling worse about yourself or you're feeling this like 

compelled to like, start a diet or look different or whatever it is. I kind of check yourself, take a step back and maybe take a little break or ask yourself, like the algorithms are amazing or like, whatever you look at, you get more of yeah. And realize most of what you see is filtered, altered something, right? The people you're looking at are not they don't look like that. Even the people you are friends with or in real life, they probably did something to themselves. And that is really wreaking havoc on people's self-esteem. 

So, I mean, that's just one thing I've noticed is more prevalent these days. So especially during COVID, people weren't seeing actual people. They were seeing like virtual people, if you will. And so. 

Rich Bennett 58:55
The you I people. 

Cristina Castagnini 58:57
Yeah, I mean this yeah, these photos and things that are happening. So Yeah. And take a break it doesn't help we call it the Facebook effect for a while there. It's like all the shiny moments people put on there. It's like you're going to see shiny moment after shining, moment after shining moment for all these people. But like, you know, you just put like, the normal moments, like, it'd be great. I mean, but we don't do that. 

Rich Bennett 59:22
So put all the great stuff up there, all the happy things. 

Cristina Castagnini 59:25
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 59:26
It takes practice because I know I was bad at it for a while when I first got on social media. Yeah, I was putting like negative stuff out there, joining in the negative things, and now it's like, Nope, forget it, stay positive all the time. Before I get to my last question, I would like to offer you the opportunity if you would like to come on the next one of the either the next one or future one Mental Health Roundtable podcast. Let me know if you're up to it. Yeah. Virtual one, of course. Not in-person because I know you're not going to come all the way to the East Coast to do one in person. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:00:03
So you never know. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:07
So how how many interviews have you done now? Do you even know? 

Cristina Castagnini 1:00:11
I don't. I don't know. You don't? 

Rich Bennett 1:00:14
Oh, good. Then this question is going to be perfect. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:00:17
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:18
I like I like to ask all my guests this. So out of all the interviews you've done, is there anything that a host has never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be that question? What would be your answer? 

Cristina Castagnini 1:00:32
Oh, my gosh. You ask the hard question at the end. 

Then we think about that for a quick second and 

that is a fantastic question. 

I don't know if it any but is not asked a question where I'm like, Oh I wish they would ask that. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:01
Mm 

It doesn't have to be a question. So yeah, you really wanted to tell people that you never had the opportunity to. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:01:15
If I could just emphasize for people, you know, remember, food is fuel and nutrition. We forget that we make it so much more. There's so much noise out there about good food, bad food, healthy food, unhealthy food the right way, the wrong way to eat. And when it comes down to we just forget the basics, like we need air, we need water, we need food, we need shelter, and we don't plug in like cell phones, right? Like people take better care to like, fuel and charge their cell phones than they do their own bodies. And I don't know why people think it's an option to fuel themselves. But the only thing keeping us alive is food. It's fuel. We need it. It keeps us going. It keeps our hearts pumping, our lungs breathing, our DNA, replicating our hair, growing like our blood pumping through our veins like it keeps everything going. So it's not an option, like going hours and hours and hours without eating. Coffee's not breakfast like we need fuel, right? Breaking the fast breakfast is a meal like we don't need to do intermittent fasting and fast more through the day. Like fuel yourselves, eat like you wouldn't drive your car from California to New York and never stop to get gas. But we treat our bodies like that. Like, Oh, we can just keep going. Like, No, you can't. There's going to be some kind of fallout. There's going to be some kind of negative effect on your body if you keep going and going and going and people have this false sense of, I'll be fine. No, you know, there's going to be some kind of damage or some kind of something that happens. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:56
I love the comparison of the cell phone and even the. 

That was great. I love that. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. You definitely need. Yeah, get that book finished. Yeah. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:03:12
You do. If it doesn't pass. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:15
If I don't, you. After the holidays, when everything slows down, I'm going to get back to work my mentor is already yelling at me. So, Christina, I want to thank you so much. It's been a true pleasure and an honor to speak with you. And I've learned a lot. And if I've learned that, I hopefully my listeners have and God, thank you for that. I don't feel so bad about the BMI thing. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:03:39
No, no, forget it. Forget it. Exist. Put it out of your head. It is a no. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:43
It is. It's art. Yeah, yeah, b, b, b, and B not b. I am b, whatever it is. Yeah, I forgot about it. All I need to do, it's gone. 

Thanks a lot, Christina. 

Cristina Castagnini 1:03:54
Thank you.