From Chaos to Clarity: Ken Cox's Journey to Reclaim Sobriety

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett, joined by my co-host today, Michelle Hayes. And today, we are thrilled to welcome Ken Cox, an entrepreneur, author and podcast host of An Inspiring Story of Resilience and Transformation. He's actually written a book, which we're going to get into to Reclaim Sobriety, the 12 rounds of sobriety. He's also the host of Clicks and Bricks, which was awarded the number one General business podcast by the Davey Awards, where he shares real stories and actionable insights from entrepreneurs. Needless to say, let's just say I think Ken does everything is there is. Oh, plus a boxer, right? Or owns a boxer. Is there anything you haven't done? 

Ken Cox 0:53
I've not parachuted. 

Rich Bennett 0:56
We. 

Ken Cox 0:56
I'm not stupid. I've. 

Rich Bennett 0:59
Well. 

Ken Cox 1:00
Done either one of those things. 

Rich Bennett 1:02
Who in their right mind wants to jump out of a plane 

or swim with a. 

So I. I want to. Let's just get right to it. I want to hear a bit about your story growing up, especially the addiction part. You know what led to that? And. Well, we'll just take it from there. 

Ken Cox 1:25
Yeah. So, you know, just really quick is is a very young boy in birth. I was born Kitty Schneider. Um, my mom was homeless when she was pregnant with me 

Rich Bennett 1:37
Why? 

Ken Cox 1:37
cause we shipped out enough cash to get her a small apartment above a bar. And so she started working at that bar. And so I moved out of the hospital into a bar, and that was my. 

Rich Bennett 1:48
Wow. 

Ken Cox 1:49
First existence. So, you know, you hear stories and I love my mother to death. And, you know, she did what she thought was right. But some of the stories I hear remind me of Guantanamo Bay. You know, so as a young. 

Rich Bennett 2:06
Wow. 

Ken Cox 2:07
She would put put the radio next to me and let it play. She knew that we would be in loud, rambunctious places all the time, and I needed to be able to sleep with the music 

Rich Bennett 2:16
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 2:16
going and people partying and stuff like that. So, you know, at birth I was conditioned to live in chaos. It's so 

Rich Bennett 2:25
A. 

Ken Cox 2:26
right out of the gate. She met my stepfather, Ron, at that bar. He was a he was a Baker Union baker in town. And he was an alcoholic as well. Did you know he could divorce with. He was divorced with three three sons and a daughter. And they get married. I now become little Kenny because my stepbrothers, Kenny. 

Rich Bennett 2:49
Oh, wow. 

Ken Cox 2:51
I'm little Kenny and living life, 

you know, union bakers and bartenders. It's a it's a it's a world, right? So. 

Rich Bennett 3:01
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 3:02
What's been moved out of the apartment is, you know, I have some memories of living in an apartment, two bedroom apartment with five kids and two adults. Very few memories of that. It is So by the time I was three, almost four years old, we move into a house. You know, they worked hard. They they, you know, the American dream of working. 

Rich Bennett 3:21
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 3:21
Getting promotion, one promotion after another. And they got to buy a house. And that was great. So that becomes hanging out on the front porch, drinking beers every night. Right. Get home from work. Do so. It was. Hey, Kenny, go grab me a beer. You know, there was no remote controls. There was no nothing on. You know, we had two channels. And you. Right. We 

Rich Bennett 3:40
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 3:40
had five. And you were the channels that we have. And the tell. 

Rich Bennett 3:43
UHF? Yep. 

Ken Cox 3:45
So there wasn't much to do. So I was sitting outside, garage doors open, everybody's drinking beer and I'm the runner. So go give me a beer. Sure. Can I. Can I open it? Sure. Can I drink? Have a drink? Sure. So, you know, even at three and four years old, I'm having one or two beers a day. 

Rich Bennett 4:01
Wow. 

Ken Cox 4:04
By the time I'm seven. Right. And this is a world of low income, low income world. You know, there's a there's a gentlemen's club within walking distance of my house. Right. 

Rich Bennett 4:17
Damn. 

Ken Cox 4:19
So just a crazy world. You know, I tell the story not too often that the first time I missed school because I was too drunk to go out with seven years old. 

Rich Bennett 4:30
Seven. 

Ken Cox 4:31
Yeah. So second grade. There's a big part of the house. The half barrow is almost empty. My dad and his buddy Howard are going to finish off that half barrel. And I say, Well, can I help? And they said, Sure. So we sat there that night and finished off that half barrel 

Michelle Hayes 4:48
Oh, my 

Ken Cox 4:48
until 

Michelle Hayes 4:48
God. 

Ken Cox 4:48
morning. I didn't go to school that day because it's just too dark to go. 

Rich Bennett 4:52
She's us, 

Ken Cox 4:54
I hit 13, I got arrested at about seven. I started getting violent and not really following normal rules. 

Rich Bennett 5:01
right? 

Ken Cox 5:02
Right. I follow the rules of my neighborhood, Right. And that's what I did. So by the time I was 13, I was stealing cars and, you know, selling marijuana and doing all those things. So I got arrested at 13 and that was my first run with a. 

Rich Bennett 5:18
Okay. 

Ken Cox 5:19
My first big arrest. I had been arrested for a couple of things before that, but we got I got arrested for Grand Theft Auto possession of over a pound of marijuana and driving intoxicated, all that. 

Rich Bennett 5:31
Yeah, That's a big arrest. 

Ken Cox 5:32
It was a big one. So I go into a and I go into a thing called tough love in the eighties, 

Rich Bennett 5:39
Mm hmm. 

Ken Cox 5:40
which. Was designed for a kid like me. Right? If you're 2 minutes late, lock the doors. Don't want to go home that night. Okay. Well, I don't ever have to come home again. Right? It was my my thing. So there were some times where after that I got the adoption, my name changed on Kenny Cox at about that time, right before the arrest. Like several months before. 

Rich Bennett 6:04
Okay. 

Ken Cox 6:05
Then prompted, you know, Division of Youth Services is back in the house again. They're watching us. They're doing all those things. I'm on probation until 18, 

I find I start working at local places around town, right? I start work. I start getting jobs instead of being a vagrant. And that's how that's saved my life, I think, in that early days. 

Rich Bennett 6:28
Working. 

Ken Cox 6:29
In. 

Rich Bennett 6:29
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 6:30
You know, this is a time where I could 

break some laws with a note from my mother. So 

Rich Bennett 6:38
Right. 

Ken Cox 6:39
I think I got a job. Actually, I was 11 when I started working at a bakers restaurant with a note from my mom. 

That I am highly dyslexic and I've probably got some other neurological disorders that probably aren't diagnosed properly. But I was diagnosed with dyslexia at a very, very early age. So I've been part of specials. I was part of a special school district from first grade to sixth grade, so I didn't have a normal track of school. Right. So. I could manipulate things a little differently than a kid in regular Trax class. So they would let me leave class. They would let me school early to go work in bus tables at the local restaurant. 

Rich Bennett 7:20
Wow. 

Ken Cox 7:21
So I worked at a couple of restaurants, work at a flat car track. I got to know the owners of those businesses, and not until years later did I realize the impact that these men had on my life. 

Rich Bennett 7:31
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 7:31
Right, because they're just the pool owner, the pizza place owner, the restaurant owner, and the slot contract owner. Right. All kind of took me under their wing and helped me learn how to 

create my own path. 

Rich Bennett 7:48
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 7:49
Right? Like, hey, this is, you know. Yeah. You're not going to you might not get a corporate job, but you can do this, right? Like this? Like. 

Rich Bennett 7:55
They were being mentors to you and you didn't realize it. 

Ken Cox 7:59
Didn't even realize. Right. So I've got contracts, Saturn cars for guys and making a couple bucks cleaning tables for guys at the pool, you know, before their tournaments for a couple of bucks here and there. And that's how I kind of learned entrepreneurship. 

Rich Bennett 8:13
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 8:14
It's a very young age. And, you know, even at bussing tables wasn't a real job. I was. And they would let me come in and do it and the waitresses would tip me out. Right. So I wasn't getting. So I learned to keep earn my own keep. At a very young age at the house. You know, we five kids, two adults, pretty crazy. Back then, interest rates pretty high. They had a house, but we always had the electric was always paid. We always had food on the table and we always had clothes. Right. They might not be. 

Rich Bennett 8:45
Right. 

Ken Cox 8:47
But, you know, it was basically I get two pairs of jeans and five t shirts and a pair of shoes every year. And if I wanted anything better than that, I had to figure out how to get it. 

Rich Bennett 8:55
Make the money yourself, 

Ken Cox 8:56
It was never in my mind a situation to where, oh, shucks, I can't have this. It was like, Oh, how do I get that right And 

Rich Bennett 9:04
Dwight. 

Ken Cox 9:04
that. That was my mentality from a very young age. 

Rich Bennett 9:09
Now. This time we still drink it and all, too. 

Ken Cox 9:12
Every day. Yeah. Of 

Rich Bennett 9:13
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 9:14
nonstop. 

Rich Bennett 9:15
Wow. 

Ken Cox 9:16
I would say through AA, I quit drinking at 13, 

I would say a year and a half. 

Rich Bennett 9:24
Right. 

Ken Cox 9:25
In years. 

I stayed completely sober for those first two years after the arrest, because I was it was. As the probation officer every weekend, all that stuff, Right. Once that started slacking and I realized that, oh, I'm not going to see that for weeks on end. And, you know, as long as I don't get. I did get some more trouble a couple more times before I turned 18, turned 18. But through that and then I found in high school, I found our speech and debate team and I found a TV radio program in our high school. So I got into that and fell in love with all of those things. Again, another thing that helped me get from 18 to my mid twenties. 

Rich Bennett 10:09
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 10:10
And have still had problems with liquor and alcohol. But I have something that I really enjoy doing. 

Rich Bennett 10:16
Right. 

Ken Cox 10:17
And at that age, you can still drink a whole lot and not be in too much trouble. 

And in that industry, right? I was a stage manager for some national touring bands I've I've worked with, you know, and some pretty wild things. We've worked on a few film sets and things like that. Drugs and alcohol are just the norm, right? So this 

Rich Bennett 10:36
Yeah, 

Ken Cox 10:36
is. 

Rich Bennett 10:37
exactly. 

Ken Cox 10:38
I grew up with drug, sex and alcohol. I go to entertainment industry and drugs, sex and alcohol. I think it's normal. 

Rich Bennett 10:44
Right. 

Ken Cox 10:45
I leave that industry in 99, I go into it. 

Rich Bennett 10:49
Big difference. 

Ken Cox 10:51
Huge difference. But I found a really good niche as a sales engineer. Right. So. Now, I'm not a sales guy. I don't have to be super tech. But what my skill set of happy hours leading to after hours closed a lot of deals. So my entire existence, I'm rewarded for my ability to drink. 

Rich Bennett 11:16
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 11:17
And party and do all these things. It's because I have this ability to drink a tremendous amount and and be cognitive and hang out with people. And quite frankly, if you knew me and you ever saw me sober, that's the time you thought I was having a problem. Right. So. 

Rich Bennett 11:34
Wow. 

Ken Cox 11:36
Everybody knew me as drunk, right? I mean, it was couple of shots in the morning. Couple of big beers at lunch before that, before happy hour been started. So people didn't even know me as a sober human. 

Rich Bennett 11:47
I was going to say, really? You probably didn't even know yourself yet. 

Ken Cox 11:55
Emphasize the problems. Right. But you know what? Not until I was 39. And so my day job, I operate a data center. And that's 

Rich Bennett 12:07
Right. 

Ken Cox 12:07
that's my main job. Which means occasionally I get called into the building. I should break this break server. They never break when you're when the full staffed and. 

Michelle Hayes 12:17
No, no. They always break when no one is around and everyone is called in. 

Rich Bennett 12:22
I have to admit, I do not miss that job. 

Ken Cox 12:25
So at the time, I had a data center in downtown Saint Louis. Now we're just in the county. We shot that. 

And I had I was going through a moment of strep throat. 

And so didn't think anything of it. And I had been through detox years before because I knew that it was a couple of times in my life like, okay, I can't eat food because I'm getting sick. I got to detox. So I'd 

Rich Bennett 12:54
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 12:54
go. To do a 30 day detox. But that was like always in my head, just a temporary thing. Right? 

But this time, I'm I get called and it's two or three in the morning. I had had strep throat for about two days. I was on the mend. So I'm feeling better. But I was down hard for two days before that. And I'm in the data center and I get everything back to working and everything's fine, but I'm leaving and everybody's gone. And I walk into we have what's called a heat mitigation room at this facility, a 10,000 square foot room that you just dump heat from the servers into and let it. 

Rich Bennett 13:31
Oh, okay. Yeah. 

Ken Cox 13:32
So it's just a room that's like 100 degrees Fahrenheit. 

Rich Bennett 13:37
Sauna. A giant? 

Ken Cox 13:38
The crime rate, but it's 

Rich Bennett 13:39
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 13:39
just it's just a room for nothing but just the trap heat and 

Rich Bennett 13:43
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 13:43
let it go out the windows and dissipate out. And I walk out of this room and the world just changed instantly for me. And I just lay down from 

Rich Bennett 13:51
Really? 

Ken Cox 13:51
there. Yeah. And I go to the hospital and they're like, You're fine. You're not dying. Like, you're lying to me. I know you are. I've got to be dying. There's something wrong going on. Like there's nothing wrong with your heart. You're just having extreme panic attacks. So the next morning, I'm in the doctor's office, and they've got me all hooked up to the EKG. 

And this? I've never had this. The only time I've ever had an EKG for an extended period of time. My blood pressure would shoot up 190 over 110 and then back to back down and it's just doing this back and forth. And the whole time, entire time, the doctor's like, there's. I can't find anything wrong with you. Are you still drinking? And I'm like, Yeah, I still drink. Like, in my head I still drink. And then finally, after about 3 hours, he's like, Can when was the last time you drank? Because I'd always been honest with my doctor. 

Rich Bennett 14:41
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 14:42
Always. I was like, Well, I've had strep throat, so it's been about three days. 

And he's like, Oh, and he put my liver panels. He's like, okay, here's the deal. You have liver disease. 

You can go home and drink a beer. And all of these symptoms that you have right now will go away or you can quit drinking. 

Rich Bennett 15:06
While. 

Ken Cox 15:08
So I made the decision to quit that day and that that was the start of a, I'm going to say, about a seven year battle to try to figure out how to live a life. 

Rich Bennett 15:25
With no alcohol. 

Ken Cox 15:26
Without alcohol and be happy about it. 

Rich Bennett 15:29
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 15:30
So then I'm quitting under protest. He puts me on a huge amount of Xanax. 

The torture, the panic attacks and the withdrawal and all that stuff. Right. 

Very clear. I caught it at a point to where I'm recoverable, 100%. Recoverable. Right. It's the liver. My lip, my. 

My enzymes were an 8 to 9 hundreds and thousands and unrecoverable. Right. Whatever that number is, that's 

Rich Bennett 16:00
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 16:01
a thousand cirrhosis. I'm eight or 900. It's like we can fix this. Like, you got time. So, 

Rich Bennett 16:08
Good. 

Ken Cox 16:08
like, okay, well, that's super lucky, right? I think. Thank God I had strep. 

Rich Bennett 16:12
Yeah. Yeah. 

Ken Cox 16:15
Will we go on that path? I hated Xanax and then I had to go through withdrawals as Xanax, and that was tough to not not as tough. I didn't think I was going to die. But then they put me on some other drug for that. Fast forward two years, no signs of liver damage. Not a single drink in two years, no signs of liver damage. So I. I operate data centers. I operate thousands of computers. Right. 

Rich Bennett 16:44
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 16:44
And and one of my matches is if you can't monitor it, you can't manage it. Which also in my head means if I can monitor it, I can manage it. 

Rich Bennett 16:53
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 16:53
Doc, can I have a beer every now and then? Can I feel normal again this whole time? A miserable, random, doped up on Xanax. Horrible. I hate. 

Rich Bennett 17:02
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 17:04
You know, I'm just like, I just want to feel normal. Like, that's all I want is I want to be able to go to an after hours and have a beer. I want to sit down to dinner and have a beer. That's all I want, which is not really all I want. And I want to just do whatever the hell I wanted to do. 

Rich Bennett 17:20
Right. Right. 

Ken Cox 17:21
He says. He finally says, Hey, if you can manage it, you can have one or two. I don't see any problem with it. It's probably healthy to be able to have a beer or two here and there. 

Rich Bennett 17:31
Right. 

Ken Cox 17:32
So that turns to me as, okay, I can manage it. I go to the local blood draw place. I'm like, Hey, do my blood draw and give me my my liver house. And they do. So now I play this game of moderation with my liver panels. 

Rich Bennett 17:47
Oh, God. 

Ken Cox 17:48
Right. And I'm going to cover my blood every week. Right. Get my liver panels so that I know that if I can drink this week or not. And I played that game for a while, which was not smart. 

Rich Bennett 17:59
Now. 

Ken Cox 18:01
Matt Smart 

Rich Bennett 18:01
Damn. 

Ken Cox 18:04
And then it just gets to the point again to where, you know, I can feel that the labor pains and the counts go up and my insurance company drops me. Like. 

Michelle Hayes 18:15
Oh, no. 

Ken Cox 18:16
You dumb ass. 

The day I got my diagnosis, 

one of the things he said is, Ken, you got to start exercising. You have to start exercising. You have to get your diet reasonable. You have to exercise. You cannot drink. So one of the things that I did that week is I found a local boxing gym. 

When I worked at the bars. And I love to fight. Fought a lot when I was a kid, but I always thought I really enjoyed it. So I find a boxing gym and I fall in love with the exercise of boxing. 

Rich Bennett 18:54
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 18:54
Right. Hated exercising. I want me to write. No, you know, hate it all. It's so boring. I cannot stand it. But hitting the heavy back. Kind of fun. I get some energy out and get aggression out. 

Rich Bennett 19:08
It's a good workout. 

Ken Cox 19:09
It's a phenomenal workout and. I've been building websites for businesses, Fortune 500 ads all the way down to mom and pop shops to my, you know, most of 

Rich Bennett 19:20
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 19:20
my adult life at this point. And I notice this gym is not running very well. I can see that it's not going to stick around. So I reached out to the owner. I'm like, hey, what are you doing with this thing? He's like, Gives me a sob story. Totally understand it. He's in a tough spot. Things bought the thing with an intention, and his wife got sick and he couldn't focus on it the way he wanted to. I'm like, Look, man, I have to be here every day. I'm going to die. This is how I feel. 

Rich Bennett 19:47
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 19:48
If I don't if I don't come here every single day, I'm going to die. 

Rich Bennett 19:51
You're not allowed to close down. 

Ken Cox 19:53
I needed to be open. So how much? 

Rich Bennett 19:55
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 19:56
See me for my first time, like when you give it to me, he said. 

But you don't want to just get. 

Rich Bennett 20:04
You know what? Good for you for asking, though, miss. 

Michelle Hayes 20:07
I mean, the worst they can say is no. 

Ken Cox 20:09
So we've worked out a great deal where he basically gave it to me on a finance deal that I got to pay back over a extremely long period of time. He got out, I got in. It was great. I had my thing that helped me stay focused on something outside of the day job and all that stuff. And 

that was for me. In COVID. During COVID, we had we lost that gem. Right. But what that did is we got to open another gym down the street right? And we had all the assets from that gym, but we couldn't work out a deal with the landlord after COVID, the shutdown. And we're in Saint Louis County. We had to shut everything down for four months as a. So we had no revenue for four months. But I've got all these heavy bags, I've got this equipment and I know business pretty well, so I know leases are going to be a really I can negotiate a really great lease, right. For 

Rich Bennett 21:12
Right. 

Ken Cox 21:12
a new spot. So I negotiate a new lease, I move all this stuff. Then I changed the name and launch it while I'm building this new chap. Right. And the name of the gym is Box SDL. Anybody wants to look up online is a phenomenal place to be. 

I've got these kids banging on my door right there watching me, and they're banging on my door. Now I had this business for. 

Rich Bennett 21:37
Adults. 

Ken Cox 21:37
Men of a certain age are struggling with something to eat. I'm building a gym for the person that I was. 

Rich Bennett 21:45
Right. 

Ken Cox 21:45
Couple of years prior. Right. I'm still struggling. I'm not. I'm not drinking. I'm drinking. Occasionally I'm trying the moderation thing. I'm 

Rich Bennett 21:54
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 21:54
failing drastically occasionally. And being okay sometimes. But I'm still very angry at the fact that I can't do the things that I want to do. 

Rich Bennett 22:04
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 22:06
So I was very angry at it still. Kids are knocking and I can't shoot them straight out of any movie I've ever seen. Right? Like, get out your kid. I don't know how to teach boxing. The kids. Right. I'm not that good of a boxer anyway. 

This is fundamentals and heavy bag and exercise and workout and fun, right? So finally and the business opens. It's not doing great. It's like break even. Right. And it's it's a stressor on the family and all these things. And finally, I'm standing there one day and like, I don't know, Madea. And one of the kids walks up and I'm like, you know what? Just friends that show up Saturday at one. We're not doing anything else. And now my team of kids is like over 100. We just branched out. We now we have So our team name is Boxer SEO Gladiators. We now have the Portland Gladiators, and we're bringing that team nationwide. But when I started teaching the kids and I, I knew I had to do them right. 

Rich Bennett 23:07
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 23:08
I knew that I had to be there for them in a way that other adults weren't being there. And I knew that I had to be there in a way for them, that those men were there for me when I was a kid. Right? Oh, I go I went to I got my cognitive flow coaching certificate, I got my breeding coach certificate. I took neuro linguistic programming classes. You know, I just everything that I could to try to figure out how to do right for these kids. Because now I've got these kids that are just Goobers at 12 and they're going to get in a boxing ring. And compete in. This is what they want to do, right. And asked me to bring them on this path. And I created the core values for them. And we started talking about them every day. And I started talking about love and respect to yourself. And, you know, it's going to be really hard. And some of you are going to lose fights and you're going to have to overcome that. And, you know, and all this language that I'm telling these kids, I'm like. I didn't have a coach to coach me through getting sober. Something I didn't have a is not a coach. A sponsor is not a coach. 

Rich Bennett 24:18
Right. 

Ken Cox 24:19
It's more of like a therapist, right? 

So it just became obvious to me all the stuff that I was doing wrong and trying to maintain sobriety and all. None of the programs that were out there and they're all great programs and they're great for some people, for a lot of. 

Rich Bennett 24:36
They're not for everybody. 

Ken Cox 24:37
But they're not for everybody. 

Rich Bennett 24:38
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 24:39
And so I can't give over responsibility to somebody else, even if it's God, Right? I believe in my creator, but I don't think he's tinkering with my life on a daily basis. Right. 

Rich Bennett 24:51
Right. 

Ken Cox 24:52
So I really struggled with giving that up. Smart Recovery has the concept. You know, hey, if you want to practice moderation, go ahead. That didn't work for me. 

Rich Bennett 25:00
Right. 

Ken Cox 25:01
So, you know, I found a lot of humbleness in recovery Dharma, which is Buddhist. Recovery and reclaim sobriety what it is. The book. It's my effort of making an entertaining read. Because why would you read anything that sucks and be this boring? 

And it's self-empowerment. It's your it's your responsibility. You got to do this 

with some self-talk and things like that. And I developed it around my 12 core values that we have for these kids. And I tried to assimilate them as much as I could to the value the 12 steps of a. 

Rich Bennett 25:43
Oh. 

Ken Cox 25:44
And then so that's the 12 rounds. And the way the book is formatted is you start with your weigh in. So checking yourself right now, knowing where you're at, 

which is great for AA, right? I'm an alcoholic and all that stuff, except it's something you've got to do. I think what you accepted, though, you got to move on pretty quickly. Standing up every week saying, I'm an alcoholic, every day saying I'm an alcoholic. Once you learn neuro linguistic programming, guess what you're going to be You're going to be an alcoholic. 

Rich Bennett 26:13
Right. 

Ken Cox 26:14
That's just that simple. And for me, an alcoholic meant alcoholics relapse. That's what we do. Part of the game. Right. So then we do our 12 rounds, one for each core value, and then we do our press release, which is just share with the public. Right. have a good time. 

Rich Bennett 26:29
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 26:30
How I framed the entire the entire book. And really what I think it is at the end of the day is hopefully a set a toolbox for somebody that maybe explains some of these tools in a different way and you can use them. I don't believe in silver bullets. I believe in a big toolbox and everybody's a little bit different. So hopefully, hopefully, one of the tools that worked for me the way I told them to, people will work for them and they can execute it, use it and, you know, modify it however they see fit for their life and hopefully find happiness in this post-recovery world. 

Rich Bennett 27:10
Yeah. And where was the book released? 

Ken Cox 27:14
It's being released November 19th. 

Rich Bennett 27:17
Oh, it's being released. 

Ken Cox 27:19
So right now, if you go to reclaim sobriety, you get a free copy. 

Rich Bennett 27:23
Right. 

Ken Cox 27:23
You can download it now. The only thing I ask you for the free copy is once it's available on Amazon, is is a review if you like it. I would love to have a review. 

Rich Bennett 27:32
Thank you for saying that, because I don't know why a lot of authors are not comfortable asking for reviews, 

which I don't. 

Ken Cox 27:42
Then ask for a good review and. 

Michelle Hayes 27:46
Only leave me a good review. 

Ken Cox 27:49
You know, you have to ask for reviews if it's good or bad, you know, fortunate. And this is, you know, I go as personally as I can 

Rich Bennett 27:58
Yeah, 

Ken Cox 27:59
this book. Right. So each each round, you know, I use the core value I simulated to the AA and how that works. And I tell personal stories about me and how I use these tools to help me in this process. Right? 

Rich Bennett 28:12
right. 

Ken Cox 28:13
So it's wildly personal. And I understand people not asking for reviews because it's scary, right? And you don't want to be told that your stuff sucks or whatever. But I've I've had enough people read it and come back to me now to say, this is this is going to help people. 

Rich Bennett 28:30
Good. Good. 

Ken Cox 28:31
So and, you know, if I. I released a book last month with Kevin Harrington. And what I know is that the reviews and the pushing it are what makes it. 

Rich Bennett 28:45
Why do I knew that name? 

Ken Cox 28:47
Shark Tank. I see it on TV. 

Rich Bennett 28:49
Oh, okay. Okay. What book was that? 

Ken Cox 28:53
It's called Many Paths to Profit 

Rich Bennett 28:55
Okay. 

Ken Cox 28:55
and my chapter so. Kevin Harrington, and we got 15 other entrepreneurs together and we wrote this book together. And each one of us have a chapter in my chapters all about redemption and reinvention. In business. Right. So I've got to play you. We're going to 

business. And life is not about not making mistakes. 

Rich Bennett 29:18
Right. 

Ken Cox 29:18
Right. And you got a lot of people out there saying, hey, fail fast, real fast. And people just don't understand what that means. Right. And to me, what that means is, hey, you're if you're going to do something great, you're going to have some failures in life publicly and privately. And that's okay. Learn from it, but keep moving forward. Right. Don't not do things because you're scared of failure. Keep moving forward and. 

Rich Bennett 29:40
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 29:41
I mean, what's the. We keep seeing the quote online. I keep seeing memes of it. Alexander Graham Bell didn't find one way to make a telephone. He made so many mistakes and failed so many times to make a telephone. And it just 

Ken Cox 29:57
Yep. 

Michelle Hayes 29:57
it makes sense. You have to fail a lot before you get that recipe for the one that that works. 

Rich Bennett 30:05
Well, yeah, he couldn't find anybody to answer the other phone. 

Ken Cox 30:10
Well, I mean, WD 40, put it right in there. 

Michelle Hayes 30:12
I mean. 

Rich Bennett 30:13
Sarge. I just had to show. 

Michelle Hayes 30:15
I mean, Rich, I could go with a quote from my favorite individual on the planet right now. Every. 

Rich Bennett 30:22
Omi. 

Michelle Hayes 30:22
No. Everything you lose is a step you take. The mess. Taylor Swift. 

Ken Cox 30:30
You're a swifty. 

Michelle Hayes 30:31
I am very much a. 

I've been a swifty since before Swifties had a name. My son's a swifty. My cats are all swifties. I am a crazy cat. 

Rich Bennett 30:40
Or by God, the cats. 

Ken Cox 30:41
I can't say I'm a swifty, but I do enjoy Taylor Swift. 

Michelle Hayes 30:45
That line has been very, very instrumental in the past few months. I actually started my own marketing firm, Clever Cat back. I was it June and it's June 12th. 

Ken Cox 30:58
What is the line exactly again? 

Michelle Hayes 31:00
Every thing you lose is a step you take. 

Ken Cox 31:04
Everything you lose is a step you. 

Michelle Hayes 31:08
I personally, I think that's really cool because. 

Rich Bennett 31:11
I think she stole that line from. 

Michelle Hayes 31:12
Oh, yeah. 

So can I actually did have a couple of questions for you. 

Ken Cox 31:19
You're. 

Michelle Hayes 31:20
Kind of taking it back to your story, 

the tough love scenario when you were younger. Do you feel like the tough love would have been better on the other side, like the overly accepting the parent who lets the child, You know, in the modern age of of kids and teens and young twenties these days, smoking weed in the house, doing pills in the house, even smoking cigarettes since that age, raised and drinking in the house. Do you think that tough love scenario or the overly acceptance scenario, do you think one is better? 

Ken Cox 32:04
Um, you know, I think parenting is an ebb and flow world. And today I'm fortunate enough to be raising a beautiful daughter at the age of 17 to judge challenges me in so many ways. And I have a 13 year old son who's nonverbal, who has a way of teaching me about the world in a way that nobody else ever has. 

Rich Bennett 32:24
Wow. 

Ken Cox 32:26
So and I can relate to my daughter. So I believe that words are only powerful if you have meaning behind them. Right. So we're pretty liberal in our house about cussing and things like that. And when my daughter figured this out, she's 17 now. When she figured this out, she dropped F-bombs like crazy, right? And told, I don't care if you use them. I choose them appropriately. And it took about four or five months before I said, hey, you know, you're not using this appropriately and you're going overboard. And we let you go overboard because I wanted you to have that freedom of life. But at this moment, you're starting to become disrespectful to us and our family. And that's not okay. So. 

I think that there needs to be both. There needs to be acceptance and education. It can't be a weird thing, but unfortunately, we live in a world where too much acceptance can put the parents in jail. 

Michelle Hayes 33:24
Yup. 

Ken Cox 33:25
Right. And. 

Rich Bennett 33:28
Too much tough love can too. 

Ken Cox 33:30
Too much tough love can to say it. It's you. It's got to be somewhere in the middle. 

Rich Bennett 33:34
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 33:34
For a long time I struggled with the fact that I was like my parents either. Either they were stupid and they didn't know or they didn't care. And I think it's a little bit of it's it's more of they didn't know what to do. They didn't know how to handle it. Right. My mom was 20 when she had me, 19 when she had me. My dad, my stepdad had, you know, three, four kids of his own. 

And he was an alcoholic baker. You know, things. The world was different, right? His dad was in World War Two. 

Rich Bennett 34:10
Wow. 

Ken Cox 34:11
You know. So I just don't think that they had the capabilities to deal with a human of my particular predicament. 

Michelle Hayes 34:22
Gotcha. 

Ken Cox 34:23
I think they had the the child raising skills and I don't think it was talked about that. 

Michelle Hayes 34:29
Yeah, I definitely agree with the fact that we've. I know I look young, but. But I enjoy talking with with everyone, all ages. And I have a lot of older friends. I have younger friends. But I think the world has kind of evolved a little bit in that we speak a little more openly. It's still a work in progress, but I think we do speak a little bit more openly about it. 

Ken Cox 34:54
I will say that on the tough love side, I think tough love can work, but you have to have somebody that has a fear of consequence. 

Rich Bennett 35:03
Right. 

Ken Cox 35:05
And I didn't have a fear consequent consequence. We were just something I had to figure out how to work through that because. 

Michelle Hayes 35:11
Right. 

Rich Bennett 35:12
There are challenges. 

Ken Cox 35:13
Please. I knew that was going to happen. Just walking down the street in my neighborhood could get me picked up right in, and I go to the holding for a couple of hours or whatever. They let me go. So consequences never scared me, and there was never a reason to not do something. 

Michelle Hayes 35:28
Right? Yeah. Right now I have a family member, and they're just not just because I'm coming from a personal place. They're not scared of consequences. 

And it just does it. It doesn't affect them either. You know, this is the law. This is what it says. You could go to jail. But it doesn't. It doesn't make sense to them. It doesn't affect them at all. And to me, that would scare me completely. I am terrified of breaking the laws We are a very straight, narrow house. But they're just not. And my other question to you would be, how do you feel like dyslexia and some of your other, you know, learning difficulties as well as like that other path in school because this person also had another path and has been told that they will fail constantly. Like, that was the mentality they lost parent early. 

How do you feel that that plus the later introduction of the industry standards of drugs and alcohol kind of set you up for failure? Or do you think that there's a way to kind of turn that into almost a super power and get through that? 

Ken Cox 36:42
Yeah, and 

that's a lot to unpack. 

Michelle Hayes 36:46
Sorry. 

Ken Cox 36:51
So I think. 

Having dyslexia and I grew up in, and probably from what I can tell from other humans and doesn't tell you out there growing up at a very unique place, at a very unique time in our on our planet. So I grew up in a town called Arnold, Missouri, and it was in a time of what they called and I know this is everywhere, but in Saint Louis it was called White Flight. 

And this is a this is a phenomena not of the white people leaving the inner city as the black community moves in. And so, Arnold, when I grew up, I think it still is was a wildly racist place to live. 

Rich Bennett 37:39
Okay. 

Ken Cox 37:40
Your own, you know, and it was very, very backwards. So what that also meant was that it was a lot of union guys and families and, you know, even the police kind of protected the people that lived there. It was this kind of community of we are us and everybody else stays away. 

Michelle Hayes 38:05
Okay. 

Ken Cox 38:08
What that did. It made the community for a smaller community fairly conscious about our children and our well-being. So my school, I mean, instantly they got my diagnosis in 19. 81, I was diagnosed with dyslexia, which is super early for that kind of diagnosis. They didn't have a place to put me. Like for for people of my specific set 

Rich Bennett 38:34
Right. 

Ken Cox 38:34
it. So I was in the special school district section, so I'd go to normal school and then I would go to other classes and my other class was everybody with special needs behavior disorder, um, Down's syndrome wheelchair. Like it was just 20 kids. The 20 weird kids of the school were in this other class, and I was the one that was, um, 

I had no visual indicators of any issue. 

Michelle Hayes 39:08
Right. 

Ken Cox 39:09
So I become kind of like the leader of this weird. 

Michelle Hayes 39:12
You're the least weird weirdo. 

Ken Cox 39:15
Well, I was the I was the weirdo that you couldn't have no visible markers. I was mocking to normal society and live amongst the people and then come back and tell them about. 

Rich Bennett 39:24
They're like, What's he doing here? 

Ken Cox 39:27
So early diagnosis. An advocate for my mother who's just like, you know, whatever problems she had, she fought for me hard whenever she had an opportunity. So what that got me was I got verbal testing in school. I got technology in school, which is probably why I'm such a techno nerd now. Right. So I'm talking 1982. I had a brother word processor. I'm seven years old and I'm doing my homework on a word processor because I can't write. 

I can't put my shoes on the right feet. I can't. If I. If I write anything, you get hardly read it. So I had a lot of super positive influences in my life on that side. And then I had my home life, which was just total chaos. 

Michelle Hayes 40:18
Right. 

Ken Cox 40:21
So to your point, I think it requires both to get there. And I and I think I'm an extreme case scenario, which is why I think it's important for me to release it, because if I can recover, if I can not drink and I can find happiness, is sobriety and power in sobriety that I think anybody else can. 

Rich Bennett 40:38
Exactly. 

Michelle Hayes 40:38
Exactly. Exactly. 

Ken Cox 40:40
But you don't think that when you're there and 

Rich Bennett 40:42
No. 

Ken Cox 40:42
it takes both sides of that fence, it takes the tough love and the acceptance both at the same time, knowing when to execute them on somebody up. 

Michelle Hayes 40:53
That's. That's the. 

Ken Cox 40:55
It's got to be all internal. 

Michelle Hayes 40:56
The big question. As you can. You can hammer them with both sides and you can have them. 

Ken Cox 41:04
Responsibility to do that for them. They've got to do it on. 

Michelle Hayes 41:07
That's the hard part, man. 

My daughters, I always tell I mean, everybody we come in contact with, we always say, you know, friends, family, anyone. Our door is always open. We are a safe place if you need to come slip up a hangover, if you need to come have a drink, if you have, you know, whatever, we will make our home as safe for you as it needs to be, whether you know, whatever that is. And just this person, I just want punch you in the face. Honestly, I just want to part with the base. They don't understand consequences, even when they lead to physical harm. You know, surgeries and really affecting their daily life out of work for things because they've made these choices. And it's just you just. 

Ken Cox 41:57
There's. There's one simple reason why that. 

Do not love and respect themselves. 

Michelle Hayes 42:04
No, they don't. No. 

Ken Cox 42:06
And the second that they can do that. So I truly believe that the only responsibility you have is to help them learn how to love and respect themselves. 

Rich Bennett 42:17
Yes. 

Michelle Hayes 42:17
Well, they will be getting sent. Your book. 

Ken Cox 42:21
If you can do that, then then everything else will fall into place. And it's hard to do. Fanatics and addict doesn't believe that they deserve it. They don't deserve and they don't love themselves. So why would anybody else that they can't? 

They can't accept it from anybody else either. It's got to come from. 

Michelle Hayes 42:39
I feel like it's an almost self detriment addiction as well as a substance or alcohol addiction. It's like an addiction to beating on yourself. 

Ken Cox 42:49
I think that the problem is that it's filling your Dupuy receptors. 

Michelle Hayes 42:54
That's 

Ken Cox 42:54
You've 

Michelle Hayes 42:54
a good 

Ken Cox 42:55
created 

Michelle Hayes 42:55
way to put. 

Ken Cox 42:55
smoking receptors in your brain and you've got to fill them somehow. Then you have to live a life of abstinence long enough that those dopamine receptors start to die off so that a normal person's amount of dopamine makes you excited. But for years I was so angry that I couldn't get half like nothing could make like I could close $100,000 deal 

because it made out that it didn't matter like nothing because I have all these dope B receptors in my brain wanting doping and I can't find anything that doesn't put me in physical jeopardy. 

Then, then that gets in there. But the thought of a beer lights up my brain. 

Rich Bennett 43:40
Right. 

Michelle Hayes 43:43
That's a good point, though. I really like that, that science explanation, because sometimes if people don't get the emotional side, they understand the science behind it. And that makes sense. 

Ken Cox 43:55
Yeah. So one of the things that you can do and I talk about this in the book is I created a dopamine chair 

inside, especially for entrepreneurs. We execute quickly, right? We have an idea, we execute quickly. And that's a horrible thing to do for an addict because if you're going to execute quickly. So when you get everything out of your house, you can't have any liquor in your house, you can't have any liquor in your in your this place of business. Right. And you have to allow yourself to think about the thing that you want. 

Rich Bennett 44:29
Mm hmm. 

Ken Cox 44:30
Right. And enjoy that thought. And then I told myself, if I want to go get it, I'm going to go get it. I'm going to let myself go to the go to the gas station and buy the liquor and then let myself go to the barn and that beer if I really want it. But I had to sit in that chair for 5 minutes before I do it. And what I learned is that the thinking about going and doing it gave filled my dopamine level. Like, I get excited and I think about I'm like, Yep, I'm going to go to the shower for 5 minutes. And that 5 minutes was enough to let that subside. And eventually I think I did that for about four months 

before it was like, now I don't I don't have the yeah, I want to go do it, but now I'm not going to. 

Michelle Hayes 45:14
I want to go do it. But I sat here for 5 minutes and now I have to go take a shower or I have to go see my girlfriend or you have other things to do in your life because. 

Ken Cox 45:23
Yeah. That nagging feeling is just that, Hey, I don't have my receptors filled and I want to fill them. 

Michelle Hayes 45:28
Right. 

Ken Cox 45:29
So I let myself fill them with the thought. 

Michelle Hayes 45:33
That's a really good, good mechanism for that addiction to help with that. Thank you. 

Ken Cox 45:40
Timeout comes for little kids. 

Michelle Hayes 45:42
I mean, if it works, it works. 

Ken Cox 45:44
Brazil flew. And then I called back just building my clutch. Right. So there's there's activities that I can execute on right away, and there's other activities that I have to stop and think about. But 

as an entrepreneur, you have to trust your gut. So frequently, especially in the data center, when you're talking about sometimes I deal with. Life safety issues in the data center. We host servers for hospitals and airlines and stuff like that. And sometimes you got to take a risk to get something working again quickly. You got to make that gut decision. 

Michelle Hayes 46:20
Right. 

Ken Cox 46:22
So, you know, that's a great skill for an entrepreneur, but it's a bad habit for an addict. 

Rich Bennett 46:31
Actually, the I.T. company is yours, right? 

Ken Cox 46:34
I'm a partner. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 46:36
What's the name of it? 

Ken Cox 46:37
River City Internet group our brand is hosting. 

Rich Bennett 46:40
Her steering. 

Ken Cox 46:42
Yes, we found that in 2000. 

Rich Bennett 46:46
Tuesday. Okay. 

Ken Cox 46:47
Been around for a minute. 

Rich Bennett 46:49
Ready for what we mean. Before I ask you my question, Michelle, did you have another question for him? 

Michelle Hayes 46:58
No, I just wanted to suggest that we watched this 

series. You might like to watch Shrinking on Apple. I think it's Apple TV. But it kind of illustrates that point that you were saying of the alcoholic going and really finding boxing. Is that outlet. There's an entire character arc over that. And it's a therapist who loses his wife and and how he copes with that through helping his patients. And that's one of the stories of his patients. But yeah, it's a great series and it illustrates your point. I loved it. 

Ken Cox 47:38
I would check that out. 

Rich Bennett 47:40
The podcast. 

Ken Cox 47:41
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 47:42
What made you decide to start a podcast? 

Ken Cox 47:45
Oh, this is a funny story. My mother in law watches our children frequently. My mom. My mother in law. Because I get home around 8:00 and my wife, she manages our jam. That's her job. And I managed to do this. I got home one night. It was about 8:00. And my. My mother in law, sweetest old lady in the planet. And I walk up the stairs and she's watching Happy Days 

Rich Bennett 48:10
Oh, wow. 

Ken Cox 48:11
TV 

Rich Bennett 48:11
Okay. 

Ken Cox 48:12
on. 

Rich Bennett 48:12
Yeah. The Fonz. 

Ken Cox 48:13
And I look at it now. I come from a world early in my life. When I left the film and video and entertainment industry, I always thought, I'm like, I'm going to come back to this one day. But to come back to it on my terms. I cannot make out on somebody else's terms. I cannot. It's not in me. I don't have it. And bless the people that can do it. They can. I cannot. It has to be on my terms. It has to be my vision at the end or whatever. And I can't necessarily explain that. But I'm I'm watching her watch Happy Days and I'm scratching my head on. My sons of bitches are still making royalties off of this TV show they made. 

Rich Bennett 48:51
Huh? 

Ken Cox 48:53
So long ago. Somebody is getting paid for this this piece that they made so long ago. And I and I walked into the office the next day and I talked to a couple of sales guys. I'm like, I don't know where it's going to lead, but we're going to make a video every day for the next hundred days. I don't know. I have no idea where it's going to lead, but that's what we're going to do. And boy, that was horrible. 

It was so bad. And then I was trying to figure out how to get gas and all these other things. And then I, I sent one day I sent out like 100. I downloaded a list of a business founders. I had a list of 100 of them and I sent them out. I sent an email as a quick question. Would you be interested in doing a video, a video interview with me and. I said the 100. I had like 14 people say, yes, that's the best turnaround from an email I've ever had. Not 40 people open it. I had 14 people reply to me saying, Yes, I would love to do that with you. 

Michelle Hayes 49:58
That's awesome. 

Ken Cox 49:59
Mike Well, I don't know if this is going to be, but. 

Michelle Hayes 50:04
I love that feeling when you're like, This can't possibly go as well as I hope it might. And then it goes way better. And you're like, Well, crap, 

Ken Cox 50:14
So, 

Michelle Hayes 50:15
I 

Ken Cox 50:15
I 

Michelle Hayes 50:15
don't 

Ken Cox 50:15
mean, have 

Michelle Hayes 50:15
know. 

Ken Cox 50:15
you seen not a 100 emails and nothing happening? 

Michelle Hayes 50:18
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 50:18
Right. I'm used to seeing, you know, you get a 40% open rate and that's great. And then 3% click rate and that's even, you know, still good. But I had 14, 14% acceptance rate like on board, putting a link on my calendar and booking a 30 minute meeting with me. So I'm like, well, I don't know what this is, but we're going to do this for a little while. I talk to my shareholders and I basically pitched it like that. Well, I'll I'll back up a second and point out to my partners, I'm like, I think this is a good way to get leads. 

And I did the first like four or five of them, and I tried to pitch them some product, but I tried to shoehorn something in to try to. 

Rich Bennett 50:59
Right. 

Ken Cox 51:00
And then I reached out to my parents like, Hey, I don't know what this is. I do really enjoy doing it, but making the effort to try to sell the have to sell them something. And that's my agenda, that it just feels dirty and I don't like it. It doesn't make me feel good when I'm doing it. So again, I can't do art under somebody's else's pretense. And it was like, Well, let's just take that. We'll take that process off of having to make money off of it and see what happens. So we shot 400 episodes and it was fun. And um, this January of 24, I had to take some time off because I was a contestant on the TV show called The Blocks with West Berkman. I'm 

Rich Bennett 51:43
Really? 

Ken Cox 51:44
not. Mike West from the challenge. The sexy redhead. So he's got. He's got a an entrepreneur show called The Blocks. And I was a contestant on that in January. So I paused the podcast cause I knew I was going be gone for a little while, and I just haven't started it back up again. There's a couple of ideas that I have, and I don't really know where I want to take it, but when we kick it back up, I think we're to do a little more attention. 

Rich Bennett 52:13
There's a strictly video or are you on audio to. 

Ken Cox 52:17
So it did really well for a long time. And then I got I got booked on a network called C Sweet Network. So I was part of their network and they've got about 100 different entrepreneur shows. And 

again, I just don't play well in the sandbox of others. When people are trying to tell me how to process what I'm making. 

Rich Bennett 52:41
Yeah. I don't like. 

Ken Cox 52:43
So it just after a year, it wasn't a great fit. But when we exited that network, I think the only place that the show is on right now is you. 

Rich Bennett 52:52
Okay. 

Ken Cox 52:53
So it's still up on you because I maintain all the video rights and. All that stuff. So we have the YouTube channel up. We're not really promoting it or anything. It's kind of going just organic at the moment. It's doing okay because it's growing. There's 400 episodes. I like to look at that as if you were going to start a business, how cool would it be to be a fly on the wall or just two business guys talking about how they started their business? 

Rich Bennett 53:20
Well, I love the that. Now I know how the name came about because of the email people opening it. Clicks and bricks. 

Ken Cox 53:29
Well, still, I have an obscene fascination for Main Street America. Right. And it still goes back to these four men that helped me when I was a kid, having a safe place to go as a kid on Main Street. That's not your business. It's not. It's that school. It's not your house. Where do these kids go today for entertainment and education and all these things and. I see a lot of business owners that have brick and mortars. They don't know how to do stuff online. And I think creating a local brand with an online version of buying your merch and stuff like that is the way it's going to have to be moving forward. I don't believe that a business in 2025 is going to be able to exist without an online presence. 

Rich Bennett 54:19
Oh, yeah. 

Ken Cox 54:21
All right. Well, they're in it and being good at it and having the tools to be good at it. And that's that's where I'm at. And 

the two project that I'm working on launching at 25 is all about helping them 

build bigger, stronger businesses. 

Rich Bennett 54:41
Michelle and I talked about that before because one of the things I never understood is how businesses that are out there, especially restaurants that will not or do not have a website. I just never under. 

Ken Cox 54:57
Look, you need a website. I think you should have a website. I think every. 

Rich Bennett 55:00
Yeah, but especially for a restaurant. 

Michelle Hayes 55:02
The menu. A website 

Rich Bennett 55:04
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 55:04
with the menu. Personally, I think it allergy wise because my son and I both have allergies. I'm sorry, but if you carry an allergen and it's in most of your dishes, I'm not going to go there. And it's better for me, you and your lawyers. 

Ken Cox 55:20
Yes. 

Michelle Hayes 55:21
I'm sorry. It is already your money and me and a E.R. visit. It's just going to how it's have to be. And it's just not. Just have a website. 

Ken Cox 55:29
It's a very special place and a business owners. So I use a lot when I talk about business. My name at the boxing school, we have a neighbor. His name is Sam and he he owns Salon Market. Right. And we have this could lead into a whole different line of conversation. And I strip mall. I have an Israeli and Palestinian grocery store in the same store. 

Rich Bennett 55:55
Wow. 

Ken Cox 55:57
Yes. 

Michelle Hayes 55:57
And are you in the middle? 

Ken Cox 56:00
Ahmed toward the end. 

Rich Bennett 56:02
Okay. 

Ken Cox 56:03
Of this trip, ma'am. It's a large ship. Right. But then there's the mosque right down the street. And we've become really friendly with the mosque. And we do a lot with the mosque. But Sam owns the the miniature Mediterranean 

grocery store. Doesn't have a lot of site caters to the people from the mosque. 100% does not adopt any technology at all in their business. And they I mean they and part of that mentality is, you know, they're still cutting their meat. I can't think that. Hello? Hello. 

Rich Bennett 56:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. 

Ken Cox 56:40
They can't even use a slicer. 

Rich Bennett 56:42
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 56:43
It has to do with a knife by hand. So you're getting those kinds of people to adopt technology after they've been doing it this way for so long. Is can be a challenge. 

Rich Bennett 56:57
It's like trying to get the Amish have a website. 

Ken Cox 57:00
Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, Sam, if you can teach people how to cut chicken, hang out, like, online, that'd be huge. Be giants, right? You should read these like it's miserable. You got to cut. You know, there's 27 different cuts that you have to make to do it proper and nobody knows how to do it. And I'm like, You should be teaching kids how to do that. We're doing it on webcam. 

Rich Bennett 57:22
I'll hear a blow up on YouTube University. 

Ken Cox 57:25
Absolutely. But. I need that, Mike. Okay. No. 

Michelle Hayes 57:31
I was just thinking that you're lucky if I cut chicken, like, twice. 

Grief. 

Ken Cox 57:39
It's. Wow. It's a wild place. 

Rich Bennett 57:41
Oh, man. 

Ken Cox 57:42
So much fun. I've learned more in that community than about the world. 

Rich Bennett 57:46
Oh, yeah. 

Ken Cox 57:47
Is. 

Rich Bennett 57:48
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 57:50
They mess with each other, man. They're at their own little war, those two grocery stores. 

Rich Bennett 57:55
Really? 

Ken Cox 57:55
Oh, yeah. They call the police each other all the time, like. Anything is out of it. One of the things the other ones that encode for something that the code enforces up there. Yeah, they're 

Rich Bennett 58:05
Why? 

Ken Cox 58:06
there. They're at each other's throats in the in the strip mall. So it's, it's a. 

Michelle Hayes 58:11
So you don't have any, you know, boring days. There you go. 

Ken Cox 58:17
I'm not there as much as I would love to be there. I'm there like three days a week for a couple hours, 

so. 

Rich Bennett 58:24
I think you need to get both of them on your show at one time. 

Michelle Hayes 58:29
In the boxing gym. 

Rich Bennett 58:31
Tell them all 

that. 

Michelle Hayes 58:35
Six based. 

Rich Bennett 58:37
Oh, on that note. Can't tell everybody. Tell everybody your website and how they can get your book. 

Ken Cox 58:43
If you want to know more about the book Reclaim Sobriety dot com, you can go there. Right now, you can download a free copy on November 19th that goes away and it will just, you know, redirected to the Amazon store. And if you wanna know more about me, it's just really easy. Ken Cox dot com is my Web site and you'll learn more about me and my businesses and the things that I do on a daily basis. Re blog occasionally. So you get to know me a little bit if you're there. But it's just good fun. 

Rich Bennett 59:11
Anything. You like that before I get to my last question. And, of course, if Michelle has another question. 

Ken Cox 59:17
No, you know this. It's a crazy world that we live in. Give yourself your. Give yourself and the people around you, Grace. Work to get better every day. And you'll, you know, work or to be happy every day. Like you're going to get better if you're working at anything. But. I don't know that you don't have to be upset in this in this life. And this life is a gift. 

Absolutely a gift. It's not a punishment. And try to try to figure that out for yourself. Take that journey. And if you take that journey and you figure out that it's a gift and then you really can't screw up, too bad. 

Rich Bennett 59:56
Right. Michelle, do you have another question for Ken? 

Michelle Hayes 1:00:00
Not really a question, but 

Rich Bennett 1:00:01
No. 

Michelle Hayes 1:00:01
I just wanted to add that that I think that five minute sitting in a chair ideal could probably apply to anything. You know, if you're to your point of staying happy, just if you're angry, sit in a chair for 5 minutes, be angry for that 5 minutes, then be done after 5 minutes. I'm not mad anymore. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:19
Put a punching bag in front of you. 

Michelle Hayes 1:00:21
Right. 

Ken Cox 1:00:22
Yeah, you're right. I hadn't thought about it just for general emotion. 

Michelle Hayes 1:00:27
But that pause might be helpful. You know. 

Ken Cox 1:00:30
In recovery. I mean, one of the things that you have to do is learn how to manage your emotions. Either again or for the first time, he was 

Michelle Hayes 1:00:40
And that. 

Ken Cox 1:00:40
tied to a lot of emotions. Well, you know, this emotion is. 

Michelle Hayes 1:00:44
Right. And that personal pause. I know with my anxiety, I'm really open about talking about it. But even with anxiety, just taking that five minute pause sounds like that that might be really helpful. Even five, 10 minutes, whatever. Have that role of this emotion strong? Take a minute. 

Ken Cox 1:01:03
Yeah. And you're not going to do it every day. You're going to forget. You're going to 

Michelle Hayes 1:01:06
Yeah. 

Ken Cox 1:01:07
fly off the, you know, the wrong sometimes. But I think just being conscious of, hey, I should try to do this occasionally. Add this to my routine means that you'll do it occasionally and you'll get better. And then when it works, you know, we're creatures of habit and we we do follow positive reinforcement. So when something works, we do it again. And when you took the pause and you got back to work and something amazing happened because of that, I think you'll continue that path. 

Michelle Hayes 1:01:35
Absolutely. If you. 

Ken Cox 1:01:36
Or like. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:39
Ken, one of the things I do want to compliment you on, because in the beginning I had no idea. But you mentioned that you're that you have dyslexia. And I want to thank you for mentioning that and also not letting it stop you from becoming an author, become a business owner, doing everything that you're doing, because there are some people that you know, when they're diagnosed of dyslexia, they're told you're now you'll never be able to do a lot of things. Your proof that you can. But my last question for you, those of you listening, you can't see the background. 

Michelle Hayes 1:02:18
It's so cool. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:20
I. What is it? Asteroids. I forget the skating game. I what? 

Ken Cox 1:02:27
Yes. So. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:28
Blade in this whole backyard. Are you a big time gamer or what? 

Ken Cox 1:02:32
Well, I'm a kid of the eighties, right? My my favorite superhero is The Hulk. I think he represents me very well, especially when I was drinking. I was either, you know, very angry or I only had those two emotions. Right. I 

Rich Bennett 1:02:46
You're 

Ken Cox 1:02:46
was 

Rich Bennett 1:02:46
either 

Ken Cox 1:02:46
very. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:46
Bruce Banner or the Hulk. 

Ken Cox 1:02:48
Yeah. And I was one of the two. And, you know, I'm a huge fan of Kevin Smith, one of my idols. I've got the Clark signed copy of VHS back there, and I just. I like a lot of color and a lot of vibrant stuff. And it reminds me of when I was a kid, right? So playing those silly little video games and goofy games and it's got color and it shows my personality. So I try to do my best to do that. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:12
I love it. I was way I was waiting for you to tell me that you have, like, an old asteroids or galaxy ago. 

Ken Cox 1:03:18
And then all of my little bottles are different. Mushroom extracts. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:23
What 

we met. What mushroom extracts. 

Ken Cox 1:03:29
Yes, I'm a big fan of mushroom extracts, Lion's mane and turkey tail. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:35
I've never heard of much. What in the world is. 

Ken Cox 1:03:40
We used to take lion's mane every day. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:43
I didn't know mushroom extract was a thing. 

Michelle Hayes 1:03:45
It's good for you. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:48
Wow. Okay. I'm going to have to look into this now. Conditions like this might lead to another podcast episode now. 

Michelle Hayes 1:03:57
No. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:57
I have to teach me about this. 

Ken Cox 1:03:59
Yeah. Just start that if you can find some lion's mane to eat. It's phenomenal. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:06
I. 

Ken Cox 1:04:06
So much with it, but just. Just salt and pepper in a pan, man. It's it's like shrimp. 

Michelle Hayes 1:04:11
You can. 

Ken Cox 1:04:12
What's your. 

Michelle Hayes 1:04:12
Batter and fry Lion's mane, right? That's the one you fry. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:16
I love mushrooms, but I never heard. I didn't know you could get a mushroom extract. 

Ken Cox 1:04:23
Lion's mane, I think is the most beneficial. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:25
Okay. Huh? Who will help Beard growth? 

Ken Cox 1:04:30
It does not. Yours is much better than. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:33
Yeah but yeah I keep I started June 1st though. Yeah, I don't trim it. I let it grow out until after Christmas. Then it comes. 

Ken, Thanks a lot, Michelle. Always good seeing you. Ed, can the doors always open anytime you want to come back? 

Ken Cox 1:04:50
I very much appreciate it. Thank you so much.