Megan Connor on Human Trafficking and Healing

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation. I have the privilege of introducing Megan Connor, a remarkable woman whose life story is nothing short of inspirational. Megan is not only the proud mother of six incredible individuals, but also a trailblazer in dismantling cycles of generational trauma. Her journey is one of resilience and courage, and having endured the harrowing experience of sex trafficking in her childhood and navigating through nearly four decades in a state ensnared in various abusive environments. Megan's transformative journey led her to a pivotal point of liberation and self-discovery and powering her to become a leading executive at a fuel supply company. Beyond her corporate achievements, Megan is passionately committed to educate and others on recognizing vision and escaping from manipulative relationships and oppressive systems. I am well, you reached out to me. I right away I was like, okay, I need to speak with her because I spoke with Amanda, who she mentioned before hand and with me being here outside of Baltimore. 

Trafficking is ridiculous. Human trafficking in general, but because we have the port here and the airport. So I definitely wanted to get you on and talk about your story, but of course, also about your book. So how are you doing, Megan? 

Megan Conner 1:33
I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me on. 

Rich Bennett 1:36
Oh, my. My pleasure. And yeah, I know this is a a touchy subject, but I also think it's a subject that needs to be heard more because correct me if I'm wrong, I think a lot of people just turn their head and ignore it. They're always the ones who are saying, Oh, no, that can't happen to me. 

Megan Conner 1:59
Yeah. And I think all of us want to believe that write about crime in general and difficult circumstances. It's something that happen to other people. We see it on the news. We we don't really think that it can touch us. And then lo and behold, something happens and suddenly it becomes very real. And the thing that I think is really difficult in recent months, especially, is that you would think that we as a nation or even we as a worldwide human race, could agree that sex trafficking is horrible and bad and wrong. But there's this polarization about how it happens and where it happens and where it's most important to talk about and everything. I think the conversation, the fact that we're having the conversation is great, but I think there's a lot of polarization and I think there's a lot of hurt feelings on different sides about what what trafficking really is, what it means and how it affects people in general. 

Rich Bennett 2:52
Actually. What do you what do you think the biggest myth about sex trafficking is? Because I think a lot of people also get sex trafficking and human trafficking mixed up. 

Megan Conner 3:03
Right. And there's there is a distinction and a difference. And if you want to talk about trafficking as a general concept, actually the most prevalent form of trafficking is labor trafficking, where somebody comes into a situation, they accept a job for low pay because they're desperate, and then they become dependent on whoever is paying them for resources or living situation or whatever, and they end up where they're in a in a place where they can't possibly get out of it because they're being so low. So that's a big problem. And then, you know, the biggest myth, I think, about sex trafficking is this model that we've seen portrayed in movies where somebody gets snatched and taken to a different location and sold into slavery somehow. But really, the most common form of trafficking happens between people who know each other very well, usually a family member, a relative, a boyfriend, a significant other that is much more common. 

Rich Bennett 3:59
Wow. Okay. That just blew my mind there. 

Megan Conner 4:03
Yeah. And yeah, because you never. 

Rich Bennett 4:06
Know about your neighbor now. 

Megan Conner 4:07
Right. Well, exactly. And that's exactly what happened to me. And this was way back in the eighties. And so, of course, things are a little different now, but I was trafficked by a babysitter in my neighborhood. Right. Yeah. So they they had a sort of a child, you know, sexual abuse material system set up in their basement. And we kids would go over there before and after school to catch the bus. And that's that's how that ended up happening. So it's form far more prevalent now for this to happen online, where predators will get into kids direct messages and request nude photographs. The kid will send them the nude photographs and then the person blackmails them or bribes them or whatever the case is. So it's it's prevalent. 

Rich Bennett 4:49
All right. And this is something I've been pushing for ever. I mean, I have a daughter who's now 22, but when she was a teenager, I was all against her being on social media and girls that she went to school with were murdered sex, you know, sexually abuse and all that. But yet today, I still see some of these girls posting these photos on social media and it's just 

I don't I don't understand it. So you can sit there and preach to them till your blue in the face and it goes in one ear and out the other. And it's not just girls. It's guys too. 

Megan Conner 5:37
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 5:39
What are we. How can we how can we get around that? I mean, what, what do we have to do for them to realize this is no frickin joke? This is real? 

Megan Conner 5:49
Yeah, I think that I first really woke up to this when I was teaching high school back in 2009. They asked each of us teachers to present something to our students that was outside of our normal curriculum. And I was asked to present to my high school students about the dangers of pornography, basically. And we were talking about the fact that so many kids will ask their significant other for nudes and then they end up getting sent around to lots of people and before you know, it, actually I was talking to my boys and saying like, if you have nude photographs of your of your girlfriends, even if she sent them sexually consensually, if she's under 18 and you're found to be in possession of those photographs, you're going to get tagged for a felony. And if you've gone and sent those photographs to your friends, you can go to prison for that. So it is a big problem. And I think, you know, you asked, what can we do? For me personally, with my kids, I just really try to have conversations with them openly about the dangers of these things. And then also, I just I'm a big advocate of the fact that our kids phones don't need to have passwords unless we know them. I think they do need passwords, but we need to know the passwords. Right? There are settings on there. Social media need to be set to private. They don't need to be accepting friend requests from people they don't know. They don't need to be posting publicly for things until they're over the age of 18. And even then, you know, it's like, yeah, discretion about it. And also just taking the time to go through with them and say, Who's messaging you? You know, what are you guys talking about? Can we scroll through these messages together? And I'm not going to read all the messages because I think they do need to have some privacy. But I want to know who they're messaging and I want to know what they're talking about. So the conversation is turning intimate. Then we need to have a discussion about what the boundaries around that are know, yeah, kids are going to talk, they're going to send pictures, they're going to do that kind of stuff. I think the more we can have the open conversations with them, the better. It's just too easy as a parent to turn a blind eye and say, Oh, that's not my problem. It's too much work. 

Rich Bennett 7:56
I said, When you were teaching high school and you had to go over this of your students, did you tell them your story? 

Megan Conner 8:04
I didn't. I was not at the point where I felt like I could be open about that. And I was working at a Title one school where we had much bigger things that I was going through. So I really felt like it was more important to talk to them about, you know, dating, safety and interpersonal violence and things like that. So we didn't really talk about my story at all. What we did talk more about was with the girls, you know, the fact that you don't have to send somebody pictures just because they ask for it. It's okay for you to have boundaries and say no. And the issue with a lot of those girls is they don't have dads or father figures who are really loving them, accepting them, and a lot of them feel like they have to send pictures to someone in order to be close to them. And they have to do what the other person says because they feel like, well, if I don't do that, I'm going to lose them as a boyfriend. So we talked a lot more about healthy boundaries and self-empowerment, things like that. 

Rich Bennett 9:00
Right. And the reason I ask is because sometimes, especially with kids, it's hard for them to understand when somebody else is talking to them about it unless it's happened to them and they talk about it. It's hard for kids to understand, right? Then again, there are some kids that even if it did happen to you and you tell them, they're like, Well, then you're going to happen to me. 

Megan Conner 9:24
Right? Right. 

Rich Bennett 9:25
You know, it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

Megan Conner 9:28
Yeah. And developmentally teenagers, especially between the ages of like 12 and 17, and for boys, even later into their early twenties, their frontal cortex is not fully formed and they're not really physically capable of thinking beyond what's happening right now in the present. And so thinking about the repercussions of, well, if I send this picture to my boyfriend, well, what if we break up and then he decides to send it out as a, you know, revenge tactic or something? It's just so hard for kids to think that far in the future. And that's where we as adults have to say, you know, the perspective needs to be that if you put this out there, anybody can see it. It's going to get sorted at some point. So you need to keep that stuff private. 

Rich Bennett 10:14
And correct me if I'm wrong, but with you, you were seven when I was first napping. 

Megan Conner 10:22
Yeah, I was seven when it started and I was 11 when we finally moved away. 

Rich Bennett 10:27
And all from this, the babysitter. 

Megan Conner 10:31
Good lord. Now, because really, all, all predators need in order to get done what they want to get done, whether it's pictures or, you know, live action things, is time and privacy. Right? So certainly the babysitter had that. I was alone with an adult. I was alone with two adults in their house with other children. And, you know, they had a lot of time and there was a lots of privacy in the basement. 

Rich Bennett 10:57
Now, I take it you said something to your parents. 

Megan Conner 11:01
I didn't I wasn't okay to them until I was really an adult. Until much. 

Rich Bennett 11:06
Much, really. 

Megan Conner 11:07
Because predators do what what's called grooming. I'm sure you probably have heard of this, but for a few of us who don't really understand it, grooming is the process by which a predator gains access to a child and gains their trust. And so a predator will gradually compliment the child or gradually make them trust them by bringing them gifts or by telling them things about themselves. They want to hear. Like, I think you're really smart. And then it turns to I think you're really pretty, and then it turns to, I think your hair's really pretty and then I think your clothes are really pretty. Can I give you a massage? Those kinds of like this is how it progresses this little by little sort of thing. And when you are a child at the age of seven, your opinion of yourself is largely formed by what the adults around you say, the people you trust, like parents, teachers and things like that. So when my abuser told me that, you know, all little girls do this, and actually little boys do it too, and this is really the only value that girls have is is sort of this sexual thing. And so if you want to be valuable, if you want people to like you and this is what you need to do. And also not only that, but this is a secret and you can't tell anybody, not even your parents, because if you tell your parents what's going on, they're probably not going to love you anymore. And they're probably going to be really, really angry that you did this. So we'll just keep it between us. I'll love you. I'll make sure that you have everything that you need and you just don't tell anybody else. 

Rich Bennett 12:38
Wow. 

Know, I'm actually glad you shared that because. Yeah, a lot of stuff like that we see in the movies and we think it's not true that it's they they wrote it like that for the movies, but you're living proof that that is what actually happens. 

Megan Conner 12:56
Yeah. And I'll tell you that, you know the exact thing that he told me that that stuck with me and into my adult years is as a child, you know, he compared it to something I understood. He said, Have you been to McDonald's? Yes, you've been to McDonald's. And when you go to McDonald's, you get French fries. Yes, you get French fries. Everybody gets French fries. Why would you even go to McDonald's if you don't get French fries? Right. Right. And he would say the basement is like a McDonald's and you're the French fries. And everybody who comes in here gets French fries. And it's your responsibility to make sure that they get the French fries that they want, that they enjoy the French fries. And that's your job. That's your responsibility. So predators will relate things to children in a way that they can understand. 

Rich Bennett 13:42
Okay, wait a minute. All right. So with that, would you just said that he said you're the French fry. Was there other people coming in there as well? 

Megan Conner 13:54
Yeah. So he had a set up where he could take photographs and videos. And then he also had like a little partition that people could sit behind and they could watch the photographs and the videos being taken. And I specifically remember money changing hands in that in that room in the basement. 

Rich Bennett 14:11
So sort of like everything you've been hearing with Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, whatever. 

Megan Conner 14:15
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:17
Holy cow. Where 

this is where sometimes I wish I had a wall. Well, not a wall punching bag, because I'd break my knuckles on the wall, 

shoot them. And so I got to push myself there because it just 

when it comes to kids and women being abused, I 

get frustrated and I just want to well, like Stone Cold Steve Austin. So I just want to open up a can of soup bars, you know? Yeah. God, 

after when you became an adult, did you confront your abuser later on in life? 

Megan Conner 15:06
Well, by the time I had started to go through my healing process, by the time I had the courage to sort of go and make a decision that I wanted a confrontation or I wanted to make a police report, he had already passed away. His wife is alive. But and when I did make the police report, they did do an investigation. But she, of course, denied everything. And, you know, absent having something available for the police to see openly, there's not a whole lot they can do. I tried to contact some of the kids in the neighborhood but wasn't really able to get in touch with them. And the ones who did, you know, admit that things happened just weren't ready to make a report yet. Right. Without corroborating evidence, you know, it's it's hard to get something done this many years later. It was 35 or so. 

Rich Bennett 15:57
So the wife knew all this was going on as well. 

Megan Conner 16:00
Yeah, she was. She was enabling it for sure. Yeah. She was making sure it was happening. And, you know, I talked on one of my other interviews and I don't know if she may have been the victim of a coercive control situation where the husband was telling her as well. So I don't know how much real culpability she had in it, but she at least knew what was going on. And she just may have been too too afraid to say something. 

Rich Bennett 16:23
So, wow, with your new book, I Walk through Fire to get here, I take it that's about everything she went through, right? 

Megan Conner 16:32
Yeah. And it's really I do talk specifically about, you know, the grooming techniques and all of that in there, but it's really more about my journey through healing. And the reason that I wrote it is because I wanted other people who had experienced trauma traumatic events to know that it is possible to move past it and to heal no matter how bad it's been or how long it's been. Because for me, that was the pervasive thought throughout my healing process. I thought there's so much, there's so many layers. How do I how do I even get through this? Is it even possible? And if you look at it statistically, people who are the victim of child sexual abuse, you know, the statistics of drug addiction and other addictions and suicidality and mental health problems are just so incredibly astronomically high that it's really hard for somebody in that situation to believe that it's possible to get out. 

Rich Bennett 17:29
Yeah. So what for you? What does the like some of the healing techniques that you do to help with that? 

Megan Conner 17:39
Well, I started with talk therapy, just regular old talk therapy, and I moved on to EMDR, which is more specific to traumatic experiences. It stands for Eye Movement desensitization and reprocessing. And it's I knew. 

Rich Bennett 17:54
That I was just testing, you. 

Megan Conner 17:56
Know, it's actually something that not a lot of people do know about or have heard of unless you're in the trauma space. But it's a technique by which with, of course, the guided the guided help of a specialist, they help you to bring up the traumatic events and the physical feelings and sensations that you're feeling when you think about it. And then you either use a light that moves across the screen or you use electronic pulses that you hold in your hand and it replicates what happens during REM sleep that restorative part of the sleep. So your eye, your eye moves across the screen and with the pollsters and your eyes closed, it sort of makes that that motion so that you want your eyes to move back and forth. And what happens is the trauma, the traumatic event starts to play for you like a movie on Fast Forward. And periodically the therapist will stop you and say, Well, what do you notice now? Or What do you notice now? And the process is that your brain actually carves a new neural pathway so that it separates the negative emotions from the traumatic experience. So which is why I can talk so openly about what has happened to me without it having negative emotional consequences for me. 

Rich Bennett 19:08
Yeah. Wow. I never heard of it. 

Megan Conner 19:12
It's miraculous. It really did. It really saved my life. Definitely. 

Rich Bennett 19:17
And now you're talking about it, helping other people and saving their lives. 

Megan Conner 19:21
I hope so. 

Rich Bennett 19:22
You are. You definitely are. I just. I know it. I know it. And I'll. I know when this episode drops because I always have. Not always, but most of the time, especially if something like this, I'll have people contact me and thank me. And so that just tells you that, yeah, your word is getting out there. You are helping other people without a doubt. Actually. Have you thought about changing your field and actually going out and helping people instead of being, you know, in the fuel supply company? 

Megan Conner 20:00
Well, yes, I've thought about it. I've actually talked a lot with one of my mentors about doing some some mental health training, but. Mm. No, I I'm 49 years old. I've been through a bachelor's and master's degree already and I would kind of have to start over because it's a completely different field from what my original degrees are in, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But I feel like what I'm doing right now, I think I am reaching people and helping people. I do have a coaching practice where I help people so I'm not licensed, but I do coach people who are in therapy trying to get through these things, to plug them in to different resources. And then also I sort of feel like, you know, in my position in the fuel industry, I make enough money where I'm able to do some good, donating to causes and doing other things like that. And and to be real, the writing and publishing of a book is not hugely lucrative. And so I way more money doing that then than I've made for sure. And my, my position with my company is what allows me to do that. So I kind of I go back and forth about it. 

Rich Bennett 21:13
That I well, I'm 

49, is still young. 

Megan Conner 21:18
It is wrong, you know. 

Rich Bennett 21:19
Yeah. If you're like me, you have a goal to be a centurion. You're going to make it to 100. 

Megan Conner 21:26
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 21:26
No matter what. So age is just a number. 

Megan Conner 21:30
It is. I agree. Well. 

Rich Bennett 21:31
Yeah, we're all kids at heart, so, I mean, you could do it, but you're already helping people, so that doesn't matter. The with the abuse. Because even afterwards you were having problems as well, Right. 

Megan Conner 21:47
Yeah. So the really the most prevalent thing that happens to trauma victims is that we sort of get into this mindset where we seek out things that are familiar to us. And so experiencing that abuse and also being in a family of origin where there was a lot of emotional neglect, you know, I, I sought out the things that were familiar to me then as an adult. So as soon as I left my parents house, like, all of the relationships that I had were with people who treated me the way I was accustomed to being treated. I was used to being ignored. I was used to being told my emotions were too much or that they didn't matter. I was used to keeping myself small in order to not upset people. And so I ended up, you know, also in a in a marriage that was full of coercive control and emotional abuse. And then I ended up in job situations that were that way as well. And my religion, from the time that I grew up was that way as well. So the more therapy that I did, the more awake I became to the dynamics of coercive control. And then I was able to start removing everything from my life that felt abusive or oppressive to me. So I went through several different cycles of leaving systems and relationships and jobs that didn't feel safe to me. And now I'm in a place where I can recognize those dynamics happening and not get myself involved in a situation like that in the first place with family. 

Rich Bennett 23:19
Six kids, right? Okay. If you don't mind me asking, what's the age range? The youngest and the oldest? 

Megan Conner 23:26
The oldest is 29 and my youngest is 14. 

Rich Bennett 23:29
Okay, so how? Because I'm sure they know about your story, right? 

When they first heard about it, how were they? 

Megan Conner 23:42
I you know, they each are so different that they all kind of had different reactions to it. But they've all been just very supportive of me talking about it. And also, I think it helped them understand a lot of the dynamics in their growing up, you know, with with their dad, who kind of was emotionally absent as well. And, you know, things like that. So I think it helps them sort of understand their place in the world. And and it opens the conversation for us to talk about ways in which we can be healthier moving forward. 

Rich Bennett 24:15
Okay, good. So and with kids, because unfortunately, you see this stuff all the time. We talked earlier about social media, 

but you see it it at schools, at shopping centers. I mean, basically everywhere. 

What is the best way that we can protect our kids, you know, from the predatory behavior? 

Megan Conner 24:42
I think. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

Rich Bennett 24:44
No, I was going to say, I mean, you're luckily you have the what you call the sexual offenders list. 

Megan Conner 24:50
Right. 

Rich Bennett 24:51
Provided that if the sexual offender follows that. 

Megan Conner 24:55
Right. 

Rich Bennett 24:55
You know, but I mean, it helps a little bit, but not completely. But what what do we do? What is the best way? 

Megan Conner 25:02
I really think that open communication and having these conversations with our kids is the only way to really help. And the other side to that coin, though, is no matter how vigilant you are and no matter how often you have of an open conversations with your kids, you're not going to be able to protect, protect them from every situation, and they are going to have difficult situations, bad relationships, you know, harmful dynamics are going to happen to everybody. But helping them to know that you are a safe place for them is probably the most important thing, so that if something does happen, they feel safe to come and talk to you about it. But as far as, you know, just teaching kids about grooming, teaching them about being careful, about being alone with adults and and, you know, things like that are important. But also, I will say that as parents, one of the best ways that we can protect our kids is by having one on one face to face conversation with every single adult in their lives, whether it's a friend that they're going to go sleepover at their house, talking to the adults who are going to be there with the kids, whether it's a youth pastor, a coach, a teacher, anybody who spends a lot of time with their kids, and especially if they're spending time alone with our kids, we need to have those face to face conversations so that they know they've got somebody in their life who's going to show up for them. And Right. Threat to a predator. 

Rich Bennett 26:31
So one of the things I've noticed and you see well, at least I know that it's this way here. Yeah. With the rec council that we have here, of all the reconcile sports, the stuff we do with Lions Clubs and and even the churches, if an adults involved is doing something where they're over, where they're watching the kids, well, number one, it's more than one adult, which is good. But they also have to go through background checks. 

Do you think that's something that basically everybody should do, even teachers? I would think. 

Megan Conner 27:07
Yes. I 100% think that anybody who is involved with children needs to go through a background check. And I know that there are lots of churches and other organizations that don't do that. And I think that that's that's just you're asking for trouble. You're asking for harm to happen, especially in churches where, you know, kids spend one on one time with any clergy member for any reason. So I think universally, any children's organization where there are adults involved, I like I like it that you guys have two adults. I think that's super important. But I also think every single adult should have to go through a background check. It's not that costly to make to get that done. And it's a it's such a small way that you can protect children. You know, just making sure that gets done. And the other part is, you know, adults calling things out when they see something fishy or strange. And I've just heard too many examples of organizations where they know that certain adult is a problem. And rather than address the issue head on, they reassign them to another location or they sort of, you know, they they give sort of tacit approval to whatever their behavior is by by not actually addressing it head on. And, you know, it's there are consequences for us adults who are willing to speak up. Sometimes they're social consequences or whatever the case is. You know, people have a negative stigma about whistle blowers and things like that. But when it comes to protecting children, what's more important your reputation, your social status or the protection of a child who can't speak up for them? Right. 

Rich Bennett 28:43
Right. And with the children because. Well, with COVID 

mental health was on the rise big time or I should not. Mental health, mental illness, kids of anxiety, depression was on the rise. Do you think and I'm sure you may have heard of it, you heard some cases, but that made the kids more vulnerable to predators. 

Megan Conner 29:10
To a certain degree, yes, because a lot of kids were spending a lot more time online doing online school things. That's the kind of situation where we as parents really need to ratchet down the security settings on our Internet. There are all kinds of apps out there where you can do the same thing with your kids phones. You can make sure that you're approving any apps you can have. You can set safe hours where the kids are not they can't have access to the to the Internet after they've gone to bed, things like that. You know, it's again, the more isolated our kids are, the bigger the job is for us to keep them safe online and the more the kids are out there in the community, the bigger the job it is for us to go have conversations with all the adults and make sure that they're safe in all those situations. So yeah, it's a big job and it can feel super overwhelming, but you just as a parent have to get to the point where you're either willing to have the uncovered, uncomfortable conversations on the front end or you're going to be doing damage control on the. 

Rich Bennett 30:10
Right where that as far as 

you know, and you're seeing a lot more now even in middle school, I think some some elementary school kids are even saying it, but they're coming out as LGBTQ. How do you how do we handle that, especially now, too, with all the things going on where you like, guys can go use a women's restroom and not get in trouble? 

Megan Conner 30:42
MM Yeah, I think, you know, the conversations that I've had with my own kids. Well, I'll address one side of it and then the other side. The first side. Okay. I think the more I think, the more that society in general is aware of LGBTQ issues, the more kids are going to talk about it. And it's going to be this trickle down thing where it does get to elementary school, right? And in elementary school, it's this, you know, developmentally it's appropriate for kids in elementary school to talk, to try and make sense of the world around them by making fun of things they don't understand. So that's kind of how it comes out in elementary school is bullying and jokes and things like that as they get a little bit older, they start to understand what's real and what's not real. Then the conversation becomes more, Well, do I want to be accepting or do I want to isolate myself and feel safer? And so people, you know, kids are going to be talking about it from a young age all the way to an older age. The conversations that I've had with my own children are that, number one, whatever sexual orientation you feel disposed to or whatever feelings you think you're having, first of all, your feelings are valid. Like, that's the number one thing we as parents always have to say to our kids is that whatever you're feeling is valid. Let me help you understand it. Put it into a framework. The other conversation I have with them is that sexuality is an evolving process. It is going to change. Your feelings are going to change as you get older, and even when you're an adult, your feelings may change. But especially when you're a kid, before you're brain is fully formed, you know, before your sense of self is fully formed, nothing is permanent. And so I think it's important for kids to have a safe adult. And hopefully that's us as their parents. Yeah. That they can come to and talk to and say, this is what I'm feeling right now. And for us as adults to say that's totally valid, let's talk about the implications of that. Let's talk about boundaries, about what's appropriate and not appropriate for your age, for this relationship or for this person that you're thinking about and things like that. And, you know, I had lots of high school students who were, you know, their sexuality, of course, evolved over time. And they would come out as a certain letter. And then it was over time. And then they would say, well, actually I'm this and not that. And my response was always, wherever you are right now is who you are right now. That doesn't mean it's forever, but it also means that wherever you are right now is the right place for you. You know, I think as adults and even a lot of teenagers, kids, whatever, we get into this rigid black and white thinking and we hear this or that and they think this is right or this is wrong, this is good or this is bad. And the truth is that our sexuality varies as much as the number of human beings on the planet, you know? Right. And and for us to stigmatize a certain thing or a certain way of thinking, I think is detrimental to whomever feels that way. And there's actually a part in my book where I talk about 

pedophilia and where I talk about predators who are trying to target children and saying, well, that's just the way I feel. That's just my sexuality and sort of this this new idea of including pedophilia in the in the LGBTQ community and whatever. And the way that I think about that is to say, you know, obviously there are people out there who are attracted to children, right? And what we need to do is dig into the psychology of that and find out why and get to a point where you're willing to acknowledge that it it is a prevalent thing. And and I don't I'm not going to put any percentage and say, you know, how many percentage of adults are that way. But the fact that we're not even really willing to talk about it on some levels I think is really harmful. I think we need to address that it exists. And I think we need to make a place where people who feel that way can go and talk to somebody about why they feel that way and make it a situation where it becomes an issue that can be addressed. At least. 

Rich Bennett 35:03
A 17. Yeah, people definitely need to talk about it. And we see that with everything with addiction, with mental health, you talk about it, it helps others, right? So they can start talking about it then? Yeah, we can help them. 

Megan Conner 35:17
Right. And we have groups for people who are drug addicted and people who are addicted and things like that. But we don't have a safe place for people whose sexual behavior may be harmful to other people. Right. You know, and I think that's something that that needs to start happening. 

Rich Bennett 35:34
Oh, definitely. Without a doubt. 

With the kids, 

it just got me to thinking, okay, so when all of this was going happening with you, when you were younger and you said your abuser groomed you so you couldn't tell your parents or anything like that. But how do we as parents, 

are there any signs we can look for that would tell us that our child is being abused by someone? 

Megan Conner 36:11
Yeah, absolutely. We need to look for significant changes in our children's behavior. If they suddenly become more isolated or if they're suddenly having bigger emotions than normal. And, you know, we can we can look at triggers and say, you know, why is it that that TV program upset you? So much? Or why is it when I said this, you started crying? You know, those kinds of things, just being aware of who our kids normally are and then being able to say, Oh, their behavior is changing, something's different, what's going on? And the interesting thing is, you know, our kids may not be in a place where they're able to really name what's going on. They may not be able to say, well, you said this thing. And it made me feel really sad because of X, Y, Z. They may not that place, but then connecting them with school counselors or with a therapist, if their behavior changes, I think it's important to connect them with someone they can talk to who can sort of dig into those deeper things. And I found with my younger children that if we were just sort of playing together or coloring or something like that, that we could have conversations that were maybe not so intimidating to them. We're sitting down with a six year old one on one and you're like, Tell me why this is happening. You know, they're going to feel intimidated by that. But if you're just coloring a picture and you're like, I love the color blue, but sometimes it makes me feel sad when I see a picture. That's all blue and just let them talk. Let them respond, see what they see, what they say, see where the conversation goes. Most children will, at some point be willing to talk about something that feels strange or different to them. If we have enough, spend enough time with them, have enough one on one time with them. But I will say, you know, elementary school counselors are really good at if you go to an elementary school counselor, you say, look, my kid seems a lot more isolated than normal. Not really sure what's going on. I can't get them to tell me anything about it. Let them go see the school counselor every week and see the counselor can find out some information using the other adults in our kids lives is a really good way to connect with them and to gather as much information as we can. You know, again, it goes back to having the conversation with the school teacher, with the pastor, with the coach, everybody. Coach, did you notice this? My kid is isolated at home. Are they any different on the team? You know, a coach says, oh, I'm not sure. Go to the pastor and say, my kids are acting isolated. Are you noticing anything in the church youth group? Well, actually, I am now. You know, it's just those scenes where we can gather as much information as we can. 

Rich Bennett 38:54
Is something else you just mentioned there, which and I want to get your take on this when you're playing games or coloring with your kids, talk to them. Do you think this is something that is missing in some families where the parents aren't actually sitting down and doing that? 

Megan Conner 39:13
Yeah, I do. And I and I recognize it in my own house, too. It's it's so easy for us to get busy syndrome. You know, we get wrapped up in the activities and the let's be on time and let's make sure we have everything we need. And we don't necessarily take the time to sit down. And we also have the TV on or we've got the iPad going or we've got we're all buried in our phones. You know, I think that is a big thing that that's missing. I love the times when I sit down and have dinner with my kids and the phones are away and we just have a conversation and it doesn't have to be about something deep or consequential, you know, But just opening those lines of communication and getting them talking. Yes. Every once in a while we do sit down and I say, okay, I have this specific thing that we really need to talk about. Let's let's talk about this and hash it out. Those are not always the most fun things to do, but I think that open conversation is missing in a lot of places. And that's something I struggle with too. We have to do it more often. 

Rich Bennett 40:11
Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. And actually as a parent, six kids. Wow. 

I I'm you. You're not a grandmother yet, are you? 

Megan Conner 40:23
I do have one three year old grandma. 

Rich Bennett 40:25
Oh, come on. 

Yeah. I've got to be the youngest grandmother I ever met. 

That could be 12 grandkids plus. Yeah. Anyway. 

Megan Conner 40:39
I'm sorry. 

Rich Bennett 40:40
I am. I just. I'm just shocked there. Being as a parent, do you actually have any regrets? 

Megan Conner 40:48
Oh, yeah, tons. 

Rich Bennett 40:49
Really? 

Megan Conner 40:50
Yeah. My I think my biggest regret is that it took me such a long time to get to a place where I felt healed, that I was not the kind of mother that I wanted to be to my older children. And I'm a very different mother today. And I'm right back then when I first started, you know, and but I do I do have frequent conversations with my older kids about I wish I had known this when you guys were young, but I know it now. So I'm going to tell you now. You know, I wish that I had been able to show up for my younger kids the way that I can show up for my you know, for my kids. Now, it's that is the hardest part. And it's there's a lot of grief there for me about missing that time of really being connected. There are a lot of things that I could have, you know, not protected them from is probably the wrong thing, that I could have worked with them in a different way. I could have reacted in different ways. I could have handled things in a way that was healthier. I could have shown up for them in ways that were healthier. But I think, you know, the joy that I have now is that I we do have good relationships and I can go back and apologize and say I just didn't have you know, I couldn't give you what I didn't have at the time that I have it now. 

Rich Bennett 42:14
Oh, something you said there, which is very important, which I think parents need to do as well. It's okay to apologize to your kids because I, I believe a lot of parents just don't if they know they're in the wrong apologize. 

Megan Conner 42:33
I think it. 

Rich Bennett 42:34
May be hard, but you have to. 

Megan Conner 42:36
Yeah, I think it's critically important for us to do that because if we don't admit to our kids that we make mistakes, then they have this burden of thinking. They also have to be in home and we have to make it safe for them to fail. It's a lot safer for them to fail when they're living at home with us under our influence every day than it is when they're out there in the world. And the mistakes are much more consequential and hard to fix. Yes. So if we make it safe for them to fail when they're younger, then their failures probably will get to be less and less as they as they're older. But yeah, I think being willing to admit to your kids that you're human and to apologize, I think is one of the best ways to make connections with them, because then they feel like, Oh, it's okay for me to talk to my mom about a mistake that I made. 

Rich Bennett 43:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kids. And even if they don't, they may not open up to you, but they may open up to another family member. Yeah, you mentioned it before, talking to all the different adults. That's how we're going to find out if something is wrong. Yeah, you know, but as an adult, too, because a lot of adults are going through abuse with that. Why do you think it is so hard for some of them to come forward and talk about it? 

Megan Conner 43:58
Well, I think it's partially societal because there is such a stigma around abuse abusers, the people who are abused. The the sad thing and I still continue to see it all the time, especially in my social media posts, is my biggest thing is let's believe the victims who come forward first, full stop. Let's believe the victims. If it comes out later that their accusation was false for for whatever reason, then let's talk to them about why they needed to do that. Because either way, there is something that needs to be fixed there. There's something that needs to be addressed. And I will also say less than 6% of reported cases are fraudulent or false. When cases are reported to law enforcement, that number jumps down to 3%. Less than 3% of abuse cases that are reported to law enforcement are fraudulent or false. Wow. So that's why one of the reasons why I have to say 96% of the time when when a person comes forward with allegations of abuse, they're telling the truth. And that's why we need to start by believing the abused and that more and more people will come forward, because we know there are hundreds and thousands of that never get reported because people are afraid they're not going to be believed. The other facet to that is abusers have a lot of power not only over their victims, but normally, you know, there's there's a lot of abusers out there in the public who have a lot of power and control. They're respected people in the community. You know, if I had come out as a child to accuse these babysitters of being abusers, the adults who know them probably would laughed at me or ridiculed me or whatever, because there are people who are trusted in the community. And it's only when you think about, you know, church officials, clergy, things like that. Obviously, they hold positions of respect. And so for an abuse victim to come forward and basically malign the character of someone who's respected in the community is incredibly scary. For someone who's experienced that power differential of like this person is above me and I'm going to come out and say something that potentially could destroy their life. 

Rich Bennett 46:30
Yeah. Wow. 

Hmm. With your abusers 

abuser. Oh, no. More than one, right? 

Megan Conner 46:45
More than one. 

Rich Bennett 46:46
Okay. With your abusers. And if you can answer this, I understand. 

Were you able to forgive them? 

Megan Conner 46:59
Yes, because I think forgiveness has more to do with me than it does to do with them. 

I, throughout my healing process, gained a lot of compassion for anybody who is an abuser, because I realize that these things don't happen in a vacuum. And I think that I feel very strongly that abuse gets passed on from generation to generation. And I think that almost all abusers out there have experienced some kind of abuse or trauma of their own, and it's because they haven't worked on it and resolved it. That's why they became abusers. And so I have a great deal of compassion for anybody who's experienced trauma or abuse, and I recognize that when you don't work on it and fix it, you then go on to abuse other people. There's a saying hurt people, hurt people and healed people, heal people. Oh, And so I think every abuser in my life I've been able to forgive because I understand where they came from and I understand how hard it is to do the work to heal. And I understand why people don't want to do it, because it's painful and it's difficult, but it's also not anywhere near as painful as the abuse you've already been through. 

Rich Bennett 48:28
As I say it, with forgiving them. Did it help in your healing process? 

Megan Conner 48:31
Oh, yeah, because you know all of the sayings about forgiveness, whether you believe it to be a religious concept or not, all those things are true. Like me, not forgiving my abusers would be like me drinking poison and expecting them to die. You know, forgiveness is about, I think, the hardest thing for me and I can already feel myself getting emotional about this was to forgive myself 

because I was raised basically to believe that I had a lot of 

culpable, guilty in whatever happened to me, and that if I was in an abusive situation, maybe it was my fault for being there. Maybe I should have spoken up. You know, I was raised in a religious context where it was like, well, the person who's been abused has to examine their own role in the abuse you know. And so I think that forgiving myself for being a child and forgiving myself for repeating patterns and things like that, that was that was probably harder for me than forgiving other people. It was easier for me to say, you know, I know this person went through X, Y, Z, and that's why they are the way they are. And I forgive them because they went they've been through a lot forgiving, right? It's harder. 

Rich Bennett 49:53
So your book, I Walk Through Fire to get here. Do you think that besides just being your story, you think you could also be considered like a I don't know, a guy, but like self-help? 

Megan Conner 50:09
Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I started writing it, 

you know, it really was born out of the journaling that I did during my therapeutic journey. You know, I started I started writing all of the emotions that I was feeling and all of that as a means of untangling it in my mind because it felt so complicated and intertwined and so layered that writing was a way for me to to sort of experience healing as well. And then it turned into something that I wanted other people to read so that they know that it's it's possible to to get out. 

Rich Bennett 50:45
So with this book, how are the reviews going so far? 

Megan Conner 50:51
I mean, people seem to be receiving it really well, which is good. It's humbling. I mean, it was never meant to be some great literary thing. I never expected that I was going to get some kind of notoriety from it or anything like that. I don't it's a short book, relatively speaking. You know, it's it's a pretty small book, but to me it was important to do it for my healing. Number one, and number two, to help other people. And so if anybody is helped in any measure by it, I feel like it was worth it to do. It was a labor of love. Absolutely it was. It was meant to be just for any one person. 

Rich Bennett 51:31
Absolutely. I've always said if you can help one person, it's like you're helping a million. 

Megan Conner 51:35
Yeah. And for me, too, it gave meaning to everything that I went through, right? If I could use the suffering that I went through to spare someone else from suffering the way that I did, then it will totally be worth it. 

Rich Bennett 51:51
Now, is this self-published or is there a publisher? It is self-published. 

Megan Conner 51:55
Self-Published, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 51:56
Okay. How long did it take you to write? 

Megan Conner 52:00
A long time. Like I said, I you know, I started it in my in my therapeutic journey. And that's when. 

Rich Bennett 52:06
You were journaling. 

Megan Conner 52:08
Right? Was journal, right? Yeah. But once I decided to make it into a book, the hard part about it was going back and editing and trying to make it into something that would make sense for other people. And then when it came right down to it, to be honest with you, the hard part was letting it go the way that the way that it was, because I started it years ago and how I felt then is not how I feel now. And I had to stop rewriting and revising and just allow it to be how it was and know that by the time it got published I was probably going to hate it because it's because I feel so differently about so many things, right? But it was who I was then in my therapeutic journey and think that's what's valuable about it. If I was writing it today, it would be different. I may write another one at some point, but well. 

Rich Bennett 53:03
I mean, after all, there are authors that come out with different editions, right? 

Megan Conner 53:08
Right. 

Rich Bennett 53:09
There's nothing saying that you can't do that. Or maybe even like a sequel. 

Megan Conner 53:14
Yeah, sequel will probably be more like it. I don't want to go back and rewrite all of that again to. 

Rich Bennett 53:23
When you actually when was this released? 

Megan Conner 53:25
Um, it was released on July 4th of this year. 

Rich Bennett 53:29
Oh. Okay. So with you being an author and the book being released, what I love to ask is because there are a lot of, you know, aspiring authors out there, but they don't know the routes to take. And I would say, what's been the hardest thing so far? 

Megan Conner 53:49
Well, you know, authoring is a completely new world for me, right? I luckily, I had a really, really good friend in high school who's a successfully published author, and he gave me a lot of tips about how to navigate this world. And I took my advice. I did a lot of those things. I tried to go the traditional route to getting published, but that takes a really, really long time and it also takes some contacts and things that I probably didn't have. And I think that's why I decided to just ultimately self-publish because I thought, you know what? I just want to get this out there, and if it's successful, that's great. But the way that I'm going to promote it is just doing things like this, just talking to people and, you know, I've sent out a ton of free copies to people who are like, Oh, yes. 

Rich Bennett 54:35
Thank you, by the way. 

Megan Conner 54:36
Yeah, you're awesome. So, yeah, I mean, it's it has to kind of be a labor of love at some point. And, you know, I would say to people who are thinking about publishing their own story, you know, considered consider the self-publishing route because they're the the deal is that your story has to resonate with 

an agent. Mm hmm. And then the agent has to take it to publishers. It has to resonate with the publisher. And honestly, those are not the most important people for your story to resonate with. But the most important people are the end readers, the people who are going to benefit from what you have to say and self-publishing, while it's not like, you know, super cheap to do it, it's a faster route to get your message out there. And with social media being what it is and you can promote your books that way and through word of mouth and public speaking and things like that. If you're passionate about a message that you have, I think that, you know, self-publishing is a good way to go and just promoting it within the circles that you have influence and. 

Rich Bennett 55:44
That is there going to be an audio version? 

Megan Conner 55:47
Yes, I'm going to start working on the audio version here pretty soon. 

Rich Bennett 55:51
Good, Good. And I have to ask you this. Who created the cover? Because I love the cover. 

Megan Conner 55:57
Very. 

Rich Bennett 55:58
Seriously. 

Megan Conner 55:59
I, I painted that in one of my art therapy sessions. 

Rich Bennett 56:04
Really? 

Megan Conner 56:05
I did. Yeah. I participated in an intensive outpatient therapy program that was 12 hours of therapy a week. And at the end of each day, we had a meditation session and our meditation therapist would take us through a chakra meditation that includes all seven of the centers of the body and the rules that are associated with it. And after one of those sessions I decided to do to paint the self portrait I had of myself during the meditative session. Okay. What's interesting to me about that particular self-portrait is that the chakra that represents your voice? Mm is the smallest part of that painting. It's the tiniest. The color takes up the tiniest portion, and at the time I still felt 

somewhat silenced and somewhat timid about telling my story and talking about my experience. And of course, I feel very differently now. I think my self portrait would be very different now, but I wanted to put that on the book because it's where I was when I wrote the book and I love it. Thank you. I appreciate it. 

Rich Bennett 57:26
I do. I love it. Those of you listening, you have to get Meghan's book. I Walked Through Fire to get here. And when you do, after you read it or listen to it, make sure you leave a full review because that's just going to help her sell more books. Couple more questions for you. So what does healthy parenting look like to you, especially in the context of having survived and healed from your own traumatic experiences as a child? 

Megan Conner 57:56
Healthy parenting to me is just what we've been talking about open conversations and making yourself vulnerable to your kids and, you know, just being willing to show up for them where they need you to show up rather than where it's easiest and most convenient for you to show up. You know, my kids, the thing that I learned the most is that all six of them, you know, same genetic structure, same growing up environment, same two parents, but they're all incredibly different from each other. And what worked with one kid didn't work with another. And so we can't just put this cookie cutter stamp out and expect us expect our kids to all need the same things and to respond to the same type of parenting. I believe that the highest form of parenting is parents as guide, which I believe my first responsibility to my children is to keep them safe and to provide for their needs. Right. But that's basic. That's baseline. The next level to me is guiding them through the universe in a way that fits them and serves them. Let them have their curiosities. Let them make choices about what is going to be their life plan and their life path and recognize that it's going to be different than yours. Right? The biggest mistake that we make as parents is that we say, Well, this is what worked for me and this is what was interesting to me. And we expect our kids to follow that same. Yes. But we as parents can't be offended when our children choose differently than we do because they're different people than we are. And if we want them to be truly happy and fulfilled, we have to allow them to explore the world, their own terms. We have to keep them safe. But we but we should just be a guide. Let me guide this experience and let you have your own life that makes most sense to you and is most fulfilling to you. 

Rich Bennett 59:52
God, I love it. Yeah, that's it. Just let them be themselves, you know, because if you try to, here comes that word groom again. But groom them to be something that you want them to be. They're not going to be happy right now. You want to make sure they're happy. So and I'm sure you've had this question before, but because of this topic, I think it's very important. If you could send a message to your younger self, what would you say? 

Megan Conner 1:00:26
First of all, thank you for asking that. I think some of the most healing work that I did was re parenting my younger self and giving her what she needed. 

You know, it sort of depends on what stage I would revisit my younger self, but I think the overall message would be trust yourself, trust your instincts, believe in yourself, and don't let anybody else limit you. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:54
I love it. So before I get to my last question, because it's always a trick question, is there anything you would like to add? Well, first of all, you got to tell everybody your website how they can get your books. 

Megan Conner 1:01:07
Yeah. So my both of my books are available on Amazon. They're also both available on my website, which is third Dash verse, dot com third verse. And on that website also you can download a free chapter of my book if you want to try before you buy. I also have a free How to Hire a Therapist guide, which I think a lot of people struggle with finding a good therapist. So there's a list of questions that interview questions that you ask your therapist because you're hiring them for the job of helping you with your mental health. And then also my coaching resources are on there and some different books that I read and that impacted me during my healing journey. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:49
Actually, I can't get to the last question yet because I have to ask about the website, third verse. What's the meaning behind that? 

Megan Conner 1:01:57
Well, I'm a musician. What? Oh, come on, I dare you. Tell me 

that. 

Yeah. Actually, my my bachelor's degree is in music and marketing my master's degrees in vocal performance. And I was an opera singer in another life. Oh. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:15
I get out of here. 

Megan Conner 1:02:18
Yeah, but so the significance of it is I look at my childhood as my first verse. I look at my marriage as my second verse, and this right now is my third verse, and I finally feel like I'm the one who's writing it. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:31
Oh, I love, oh, man, I wish I would have known your musician before you start. Well, now, yeah. 

Megan Conner 1:02:39
Well, I'll just have to come back and we'll talk more about. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:41
Yes, because I love I love putting people on the spot and ask them to sing. But I still do. You still. 

Megan Conner 1:02:48
Perform? I don't. I'm in a season in my life where I don't right now. I do miss it, but I will get back to it. But it's just not for right now. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:58
Now, do you write as well? Music? 

Megan Conner 1:03:00
I do. I write some music, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:03
Oh yes. You definitely have to come back. What's your favorite type? 

Megan Conner 1:03:06
My favorite? 

Rich Bennett 1:03:07
What type of music? I know it's hard to say. Just one, because. 

Megan Conner 1:03:12
It is really hard. But I'll tell you one of my favorite jokes where somebody says, What is your least favorite genre of music and why is it country? 

And I say, I felt that way until I moved to Texas, and I kind of got to know country music better. But I will say I really appreciate all forms of music. I what I love about country, though, is that it's so versatile, you know? Yeah, you've got the whole spectrum in there from rockabilly to blues, you know, all of that sort of gets incorporated into country. I love the way it meshes together. My first love was classical music, but it's I mean, if you look at my playlist on my phone, I mean, it's everything from opera to Tchaikovsky to Eminem to I mean, and everything in between. I'm just a. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:05
Mother and sister. 

Megan Conner 1:04:06
I'm sorry. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:07
I think we're twins. 

Megan Conner 1:04:09
We could be. Yeah, we love. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:10
Except you're just a lot younger. But still, I think I'm the same way I love. And I love it when nobody's home because I'll sit there and put on classical or even opera and crank it up. 

Megan Conner 1:04:22
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:22
Because I love to hear pull out, you know, pick out the different instruments and all that. And yes, you definitely have to come back on. Now we just talk about music for hours. 

Megan Conner 1:04:31
That's right. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:32
All right. So my final question, I love to ask every guest this. You have been on several podcasts. Now, out of all the hosts that you've talked to, is there anything that a host has never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be the question and what would be your answer? 

Megan Conner 1:04:54
Oh, my gosh. Wow. 

I don't know. That's a really hard question. I think I've been asked just about everything because I almost always say, you know, nothing is off limits. I'm happy to talk about whatever. 

Gosh, I really honestly can't think of anything. I just really I appreciate the, you know, the chance to just have a conversation. And like, between friends, I don't really think about how many people are not watching. You know, I just hope something resonates with the people who are out there. 

I really just the most important, important message that I always want to get out whenever I do any one of these interviews is that, you know, it can feel it can feel really dark no matter where we are, no matter what we've been through. And trauma is not a competition. It's not like I don't like it when people look at my story and say, Oh my gosh, you've been through so much more than I have it. That's not the issue. The issue is that whatever we go through is consequential to us. But it's not about the amount of trauma or the length of time or anything like that. It it impacts us all in in sort of sort of the same way. 

But I have to say, okay, so if I, if I, if I have to pin this down, 

I guess the question that is most important to me to explore is what what is the most important 

or what is the most consequential way that healing takes place? 

Rich Bennett 1:06:39
Oh, 

and what would be your answer? 

Megan Conner 1:06:43
The answer to that is that everything that has to do with healing and trauma ultimately comes down to what is inside of me. And two people can experience the same traumatic event and one person can walk away with no effect and the other person can walk away with significant harm and damage. And the reason for that is because it's not the trauma. It is our reaction to the trauma that causes the damage. And most of the time, what I found in my own experience is that an EMDR taught me this. My negative reaction to trauma is because of negative beliefs that I have about myself. It's not the fact that I was abused, but it's the fact that I believed after the abuse that the reason it happened is because I wasn't worthy of good treatment or because I believed that I was not in control of my own life or because I believed that somebody else had power over me. And so I think preventing trauma and also healing from trauma are two sides of the same coin. If we believe that we're worthy and if we believe that we're powerful, and if we believe that we have the ability to affect change in our own lives, then we can never be really abused. Someone can mistreat us, but that mistreatment won't negatively affect us because we love ourselves. And so when I talk to people about relationships and healing, relationships is most of what I do in my coaching. 

I ask people to name what what is the most important relationship in your life? And religious people will always say God, and most other people will say either it's their primary relationship or their kids, or a parent or something like that. It always takes people a very long time before they name the relationship with themselves and. That to me is more important than anything else we talk about, is that you can't heal anything until you heal the relationship you have with yourself, until you believe that you have everything within yourself that you need to heal and to prosper, to progress, to survive, to effect change in your own world as beautiful. 

Rich Bennett 1:09:13
God, I love that. Now you're where you started. If that was the thing and you got to love yourself first and you got to respect yourself because otherwise it's going to be hard to love others and respect others. So, Megan, I want to thank you so much. It's been a true pleasure. And of course, you're right. You have to come back on because yeah, actually, that's you sit next year when you're comes out all my albums now whatever I'll be. 

Megan Conner 1:09:45
Your. 

Rich Bennett 1:09:45
E.P.. Yeah, it comes out then. Yeah. We're going to have that. God threw me for a loop here. Tell me, your music musician moving up. Megan, thanks so much. 

Megan Conner 1:09:58
Thank you so much for having me. This has been a great conversation.