Ruth Fearnow's Approach to Therapeutic Mindfulness

Rich Bennett 0:00
Your book, Therapeutic Mindfulness, has been praised for its practicality and accessibility. So can you share with us a pivotal moment or experience that inspired you to write the book? 

Ruth Fearnow 0:14
Yeah, and it's funny because it's like all the pieces in my life were coming together. So I can I can lay the back story if you like, but there is a lay in the back story. I think it starts with my meditation practice. So long before I became a therapist, went to challenge. China was tongue fu and chew gum, and I started getting serious about a meditation practice there. There was no running water. There was no electricity where in the base of the Himalayas. And I was spending time. You're you're looking gobsmacked here. 

Rich Bennett 0:51
Well, see, I'm glad I don't record video because sometimes the people I have on or just leave. Yeah, people be looking like ridge pick your jaw up off of the ground. It's like, 

that is pretty damn cool, though. At the base of. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm shocked already. 

Ruth Fearnow 1:10
Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, I can throw out more just for the shock value or make it in less exciting, just depending on which angle the story I tell. But all of it is true. So I was spending time with books that came from an Eastern perspective about meditation, and I was spending a good bit of time trying to meditate, trying to get it right, trying to achieve what they're describing in the books. And essentially that was the beginning of my meditation practice, and I was there for over a month. So when I came back, I continued that so fast forward a decade. I'm still I now practice with guided visualizations, classic meditation, contemplations, all these different kinds of practices that incorporate aspects of mindfulness. And then I become a therapist. And when I was an intern, I was taught, you know, we need to teach grounding skills, coping skills. Let's do it in the sense that we need to be doing this with people every session, because a lot of the people coming to us do not have basic emotional regulation or basic ability to be with their feelings and to regulate them or to cope. And so we need to be doing this. Okay, we do that. But already I'm incorporating things from my decade of doing, you know, meditation and different things like that. So that's kind of some backstory. And then as I start gaining my chops as a therapist, I become EMDR trained, EMDR certified. EMDR is a really in-depth trauma therapy, and I just in general, start understanding more deeply how the mind works, how things from the past affect the future, what that looks like, how you heal that. And then in 2018, I think all those pieces are just like floating around. I didn't even know it was a puzzle. And then I read Tara Brock's book, Radical Acceptance. Highly recommend. I start telling everyone to read that and it started with stuff that I understood, but then it just deepened and broadened what I understood about how you could use mindfulness and all these pieces that I had floating just kind of fell into place. And I started teaching people how to use mindfulness to go into their body when they're feeling bad and how to heal it directly. And people were able to start doing this outside of session without me. A lot of people can do this without me. EMDR, You need me for, and there's a lot of ways that I can, you know, I'm skilled at what I do, right? Mindfulness. People can build that skill on their own and be doing work without me. And that's when I really started teaching it more, learning it more, paying attention, more building upon that tool. And it's funny because for years after I became a therapist, I had this sense actually for many years I had a sense that I would write a book, and I would think as I was learning things as a therapist that seemed really insightful, blew people's minds. And I would say, Should I write the book? Should I write it on forgiveness, true forgiveness? Should I write it down? I should write on that. And I would check inside where my higher guidance, you know, my knowing place, it would basically say like, no, put it back in the oven. You're not done cooking yet. You know, I could just feel I wasn't ready right after I read Radical Acceptance. And then this process came together. And it is a step by step process, very western, very easy to follow. It came together and I checked in with my deeper guidance and I said, Am I supposed to write about this? And it was very clear the answer was yes. Hmm. 

Rich Bennett 4:48
Interesting. All right. I got a lot of questions now, number one, and I'm going to pronounce it wrong. So I'm just going to say China, what pulled you what made you decide to go over to China for the kung fu and studying? 

Ruth Fearnow 5:05
I like martial arts. I've studied martial arts. I had a buddy that is almost I mean, not really fanatical, but like an enthusiast, right? He knows his art. He knows all about chant. Shall Lin read? You know, watch all this Shaolin movies? The Jet Li, when he was a star in China. Just all the things that place is monumental to him. You someone that I knew from high school. So after high school, I run into him and were, you know, catching up and all that. And he's just like telling me about this plan to go to this school in Shaolin and studied kung fu. And he's really and is down the street from the actual Shaolin Temple. Oh, wow. Right. And so he's like a good, well, to be fair, challenge, only like one street. It's a very tiny town. But the Shaolin Temple really? It is. It's a while. At least it was in 2001. So. And then there's a bunch of other kung fu schools and Shaolin. And so China's kind of opening up to capitalism a little bit more. And so there's this place and you can go there and he really wants to go. And I'm like, Oh, that sounds cool. I love to go. And he's like, You want to go? I'm like, Yeah, I want to go where I just went. 

Rich Bennett 6:20
Wow. 

Ruth Fearnow 6:21
It's just that was the thing. 

Rich Bennett 6:23
All right. I have to ask you this, because when people go to different countries, 

I always have to know the cuisine over there. What was one of your favorite things to eat over there? 

Ruth Fearnow 6:38
To eat? 

Rich Bennett 6:39
Yes. 

Ruth Fearnow 6:42
It was fried rice with egg and vegetables. There is this little place down. 

Rich Bennett 6:50
Oh, but you can get that here. 

Ruth Fearnow 6:53
Fried, right? 

Rich Bennett 6:55
Oh, not like that. Okay. 

Ruth Fearnow 6:57
No, no. It was the best thing that we either regularly remind you that I'm not in a big city, but that was the good stuff. That was the person in the country that cooks the best in the town. But that's not the best story. You want to hear a food story, I'll tell you. So we went down there. We're wondering this. We're young. We're young and ignorant, right? Just Chinese food in China tastes like Chinese food in America. So 

there is this little. Restaurant and we found that it has English in the menu as well as Chinese. And so once we're settled in and we're like, Let's go there and find out. So we go there and we see something that says orange chicken. We're going to we're going to try orange chicken in China. So we order orange chicken and we first off, they don't give you rice with your plates. Like, now I have this joke in my head that you always get rice with everything because they're like you Americans need more rice for rice, right? You have to order rice if you want rice. So we just get this pile of chicken bones. And. It is like they chopped a chicken in squares or something. It is you squares of chicken bones on this plate that we're supposed to split. He orders rice and we've got these chicken bones, and I'm picking through these bones. I'm like, This has got to be the skinniest, most anorexic chicken I have ever seen and I can't find anything. I am looking for something to eat. I get like a little tiny, tough the meat here or there, and that's it. And I'm like, picking through this. I'm like, What do we eat? How am I getting full on this? And I can taste there's like some kind of spice blend on it and I can taste it when I have my tiny little nibble of chicken. And the spice blend tastes good, but I don't. I don't understand what's happening here. And then he suddenly says, Oh my God. I'm like, What? He goes, There's a foot on my plate. 

Rich Bennett 8:54
What? 

Ruth Fearnow 8:55
And I'm like, I'm looking over. I'm like, Oh, And I look at mine and I'm like, There's a foot on mine too. And I just put it aside and then I keep eating and try to act like everything's normal. And he kind of seems to calm down a little bit and he starts trying to pick through it, looking for something to eat again, and then he says, I can't eat this. And he pushes his plate away. I'm like, What? He goes. There's a head on my plate. And quickly out of my mouth because I'm a terrible friend. I say, you know, cries. And I start laughing. And then I see that he is absolutely stricken and mortified and. I stop the laughing and I shut it up. And I'm like, So he is super freaked out. He doesn't touch anymore Chicken. 

Fast. Forward a little bit as I familiarized myself with Chinese culture, not only, of course, do they eat the heads and the feeds and the fish and every part of an animal that is edible, but also they eat the bones. They will eat, not suck the marrow, they eat the bones, they chew on the pillows. Often they eat them. We supposed to eat that plate. They probably took it back looking like we haven't touched the meal. 

Rich Bennett 10:10
What the hell did they do with all the meat? First of all, from the chicken. 

Ruth Fearnow 10:13
I told you I think it was anorexic. Unless they do that part for themselves. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I think he got the head because he was the man. 

Rich Bennett 10:25
Oh, you didn't have one on your plate? 

Ruth Fearnow 10:27
I didn't get a head. It was one chicken, except have we each get a foot. But he gets the head because he's special. 

Rich Bennett 10:35
That now I want to go there just to try that. 

I. Wow. Okay. Thank God I've never had that at first because, yeah, I think I would have freaked out, but then I would have eaten it. I would have tried it. 

Ruth Fearnow 10:52
When you first got a. 

Rich Bennett 10:53
Foot. I'm thinking we may hope that. God, it's a chicken foot. 

Ruth Fearnow 10:55
Not so. You might understand why we did eat a lot of fried rice. 

Rich Bennett 11:01
Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Now, that definitely makes sense. So with. Oh, God. With the. I have to ask this, too, because before we started recording, you're in the I.T. field. Yeah. So what made you switch fields? 

Ruth Fearnow 11:19
I was when I. When I got into it, I had a many years long existential crisis. I always had a sense that something would mean more to me, like even within the I.T. field, to try to make it meaningful. That's why I worked in hospitals for most of my career. I was in it for 17 years, worked for hospitals because I thought at least I'm supporting something that is meant to help people from. And it's interesting, there's a lot that I enjoy about the field. It's like intellectual candy, you know, there is puzzles to figure out. There's so it's there's a lot that's really cool about it, but it didn't seem deeply meaningful to me in and of itself. And I had the sense that I had skills to offer that that would probably be best served elsewhere. But it took me years and years and years to find it. And as I matured and started to learn that I have wisdom inside me that defies my logic, that when I follow, I actually know some stuff. Then it was about a year, a year and change after that that I realize not only do I know what I'm supposed to do, but I've always known I knew it. And in sixth grade I'm supposed to be a psychologist, I'm supposed to help people. And it was there. But when I was a teenager, when I was getting ready to go to college, I'm like, get close to people's uncomfortable feelings. Hardly not. They no way. 

And then I had to go through years and years before I remembered that that was my calling. So that's the best I can say. If you have a concept of a calling, it just defies description or logic. There were a lot of things I could logically do. Logically, I could have became an expert in Cisco Routers and Network. Right. Good at what I did. But something drew me to this. And once I knew it, then I couldn't undo it, know it, and I went back to school. 

Rich Bennett 13:30
All right, So when you're doing your therapy sessions, they're running loops, you're doing your therapy session. 

Do you actually have I don't know. I don't know if patience is the right word. 

Do you have the person meditate? 

That's okay. And the reason I ask is because I've never heard of a therapist that does that really well. 

Ruth Fearnow 13:59
What the heck is quote or doing, Rich? Well. 

Rich Bennett 14:04
I. I mean, I may be wrong or let me rephrase that. I don't believe I've had one on ice. Well, I, I just because I'm always pushing for meditation, I think meditation works it with a lot of things 

and yeah, I know people do that go to therapy and you ask are always, well, you know, has a meditation or what do you mean? A So what? Don't you meditate, you know, have you tried meditating? No. 

Ruth Fearnow 14:33
Really? 

Rich Bennett 14:34
Yeah. 

Ruth Fearnow 14:35
That that's interesting to me because honestly, I was wondering, I'm sorry for everyone in Indiana. This is but this is where I make my home and my family. But I really thought and again, I was kind of like Liz, ten years behind on the meditation gig and maybe a lot of people are doing that in therapy in Baltimore, but. 

Rich Bennett 14:54
They may be, but I've never heard of it. 

Ruth Fearnow 14:57
Yeah, maybe I'm in the minority. Actually, I know I am here and I was not in private practice in any other places. But I can tell you that even as an intern in Virginia, I'm brand spanking new and I'm already taking people through guided visualizations because I have wow. Experience doing it. Mhm. So I've always done that. I've always considered that advancing your mental health is the same as spiritual growth. They go hand in hand, they can't be separated. And we were told even in, in my internship to teach certain things and they are mindfulness practices, it's not all the way to meditation yet, but I just had a skill set already. Right. And, and then DVT. So DVT is a type of 

therapy that combines cognitive behavioral therapy with mindfulness type practices. So there is a lot of that built in to it, but they tend to be coping skills. And what I'm doing different is what I teach, what I've developed, taught and what I wrote about in my book. Therapeutic mindfulness is not a coping skill goes beyond that. So when you just use these things as coping skills, they can just become new ways to suppress and avoid saying, I have to deal with stuff. And that's why my book Therapeutic Mindfulness subtitle is actually Is therapeutic mindfulness a healing skill, not a coping skill? Because I'm doing something different. 

Rich Bennett 16:29
Hmm. 

Okay. Well, actually, 

mindfulness and therapeutic mindfulness, is there a difference? And you said, what is the difference? 

Ruth Fearnow 16:41
So glad you asked that. So mindfulness, mindfulness has two components. Okay, so my pain is non-judgmental, focused attention. That's the whole definition. Look up any student and they're just trying to say that with more words. Okay, non-judgmental. Focus, attention. So you can do mindfulness on eating a raisin. A lot of people take these classes. They do that eating a raisin exercise or sipping a cup of tea. You can do mindfulness, sipping a cup of tea. You put all of your focus on all the minuscule aspects of that super hyper focusing your attention without any judgment, and you practice observing. And that creates brain tissue in the area of being able to observe and describe what's happening in life. And there's a lot of benefits to all the mindfulness practices, because when your life gets chaotic, having that habit of being able to observe, observe without drowning in it, identifying with it so much is super powerful. But what happens is once people learn something like say, you learn a guided visualization and you're at the beach and it's so peaceful and you imagine all the things. Then later on, when you get a bad feeling, it's like, Oh my God, this is uncomfortable. And at the beach I'm. At the beach. And people and that becomes suppression. So the moment you're trying to suppress and avoid you are by definition, no longer mindful because you are judging your experience. 

Okay, So if I need to not feel bad, I am judging the fact of feeling bad. 

Rich Bennett 18:28
Interesting. 

Ruth Fearnow 18:29
You picking up what I'm throwing down? 

Rich Bennett 18:31
Yeah. Yeah. Picking up what? Your third word. 

Ruth Fearnow 18:33
Is? 

Yeah. So you ask, what is the difference? So mindfulness is simply the focus, non-judgmental attention, therapeutic mindfulness. I developed as a step by step process to use mindfulness specifically in a therapeutic way. Because when people don't have overwhelming bad emotions, when they want to practice mindfulness, they can pick a focus, they can pick their breathing, they can pick there, do a body scan, they can pick a candle music, eating a raisins, drinking tea. They can pick mowing the lawn, and they can use that hyper focus attention without any judgment. And they can practice mindfulness. But because I know there's a tendency, a very strong tendency of our mind to want to avoid what I've done is said develop step by step. When you're feeling bad, you can use non-judgmental, focused attention to go to the bad feeling, you feeling anxious where you're feeling angry. Let's go to it and you get hyper focused on that in your body because that's where emotions reside. They're in the body. And then I'm going to teach you how to do it without any judgment. And when you start doing that, being fully aware and fully present and fully focused on a feeling in your body without judging it, it it's like magic. It starts to shift and change, and sometimes it gets real big because it wants to test if you're really going to stick with it and if you stick with it without judging and giving it your full attention, it starts to relax and dissolve and it will heal. And it is phenomenal to watch. It is the coolest thing. 

Rich Bennett 20:14
She and this is where I don't know. I mean, I don't get lost. But other people that I've talked to about this, 

they don't understand how to do it. When you when you talk about they're focusing on an area of your body. How do you do that? I can't explain it to people how to do that. 

Ruth Fearnow 20:35
Great, because I have a tool that helps. 

Rich Bennett 20:37
Okay. 

Ruth Fearnow 20:38
So some people, if they've had a mindfulness or meditation practice that they've done for many years, they just have developed the skill and the mind is not so noisy that it intrudes. So that's some of the mind training that a lot of the traditions teach. And there are some people that will still need help and there are some people that won't be able to do this right away, but there are a lot of people that can. And so how do you do it? Awesome question. My favorite. I have a set of body focusing questions that I use and I will ask them. And by the time we're done, the questions, the thoughts are in the background or they're gone and you have the focus. So for example, the last time I did a workshop, a woman had shame come up, and even in therapy I would never try to talk through shame because shame is so subconscious. That logic is not going to touch it right? We have to do that on a deeper level. So. But she's up. She's my guinea pig. The whole group is watching her. And I say, okay, if the feeling was its own entity and it was somewhere in your body, where would it be? While she says, it's at my stomach, if it had a size, how big would it be? And she shows me is this giant thing right here on her stomach. Okay, if it had a temperature, what would that feel like? It's cold. If I had a texture, how would it be to the touch? It's rough. If it had a color, what would it look like? It's gray, white, marbled. Okay, so now, after all those questions, her subconscious mind has been allowed to show and represent the pain, the shame in this rock form and she is very, very focused on is subconscious mind as action is active and her story is gone, she's completely focused on it and now she has focus attention. I add the non judgment and I say, let it be there, give it space, Just be curious whatever it's going to do. If it gets heavier, great. If it gets colder, great. Just watch it. That's your only job and it starts to lighten and shift and change until it's gone. 

Rich Bennett 22:50
Wow. 

Damn. Okay, so now you just need to come to any time I talk to anybody, you just need to come back to Baltimore. You can tell them. 

Ruth Fearnow 23:04
How we're. 

Rich Bennett 23:05
Actually with your practice. Since you're in Indiana now, do you just practice there or, you know, because of COVID, everything went virtually. Can you do it with anybody anywhere? 

Ruth Fearnow 23:19
I am virtual. However, the state law say that I am licensed only in Indiana, so I am Red Sox. So I. Well, that sucks. But I got to tell you, Rich, I had a waiting list before I ever had a book. I had a waiting list. Really? Yeah. I mean, that's par for the course. It's hard to get into me because I can only see so many people. That's why I wrote the book. Look, I can help people. I can help with this. If people get that book and practice this, start a book club, hand it to their team of therapists, I will do talks. I will teach them, I will demonstrate it. I can reach more people this way. Even even if I had worldwide, I only have so many hours a week. Right? As I told you, I am not more busy than I want to be because I prioritize family and things in life. So I'm going to see X number of clients a week. And beyond that, this is my way to get what I know out there and I'm happy to teach present, demonstrate. So if anyone is hearing this and think this, this sounds amazing get on Ruth fair now dot com look me up tell me to come teach for you have a book start a book club, read it practice it Have me come demonstrate. I'll do it. 

Rich Bennett 24:34
All right. You said something which is I think is very important and a lot of people don't do. I think some people forgot how to do it. You prioritize family and everything. How explained everybody how important that is, and above all else, how easy it is. 

A lot of people think it's hard. 

Ruth Fearnow 25:00
I'm sorry, I can't tell you That is easy. It's easy for me because I don't have guilt around, not about overperforming, but I honestly, this is a therapeutic issue. There are people I see so many people that have performance based worth. Hmm. Or guilt about not taking care of everyone and everything. And both of those things are issues that will you want to prioritize a family. And yet when the boss pushes on you, when the church lady pushes on you and whoever pushes on you, the guilt is so intense and the fear that you are a horrible human being. If you don't do these things. And the need to garner approval are heavy, heavy emotional blocks. So for some people it is really hard. And those are exactly the things, not ironically at all that you can do therapeutic mindfulness on when you decide not to help, you say, I don't want to help, and yet I feel so horribly guilty. You can go into your body and you can heal that. So for people, it is not only hard, it feels crippling, right? Not to say yes to the other things. And for me it's as easy as pie because I that just happens to be not something I'm walking with. And if I ever did, at some point I healed it. So once, you know, I can say no to stuff and I can go with where my values say our priority and that's my family. 

Rich Bennett 26:33
Okay? I just I know it takes for some people it could take practice, but I'm loving it. Yeah. I think it's very important that people you you have to prioritize it. Put family first. I that's my belief. Let's take a little break here so I can tell you about something that, um. Well, if it wasn't for me starting this, I wouldn't be here doing the podcast. And that's Harvard Kennedy living dot com. I started her for Candy living icon back in 2012 and it's a good positive news website. Nothing negative on it whatsoever. It's all it's good positive news. I also feature different businesses on there artists, authors, a little bit of everything. It's all about Harford County. Harford County, Maryland has so many great things to offer. If you're out of state, out of the country, you come here. I guarantee you wherever you go, you're going to love it. And if you live here in Harford County, if you haven't been out to see everything, what are you waiting for? You need to get out there again. Go to Harvard, Kennedy Levine dot com. Check out all the good news. And if you're in the business, if you would like to be a sponsor, contact me. Because the sponsors of Harford County love income also get some added benefits. They are also the sponsors of this podcast, Conversations with Rich Bennett. Amongst some other things. I always throw surprises in for my sponsors. So again, go to Harvard, Kennedy Levin dot com with the book Therapeutic Mindfulness actually what was it released. 

Ruth Fearnow 28:23
May 1st this year. 

Rich Bennett 28:25
May 1st of this year. Okay. How long did it take you to write? 

Ruth Fearnow 28:29
It took me 

from 2018 to 2022. I started, as I said, mid 2018. The process developed. By the end of 2018, I realized that I need to start writing it. Okay. And in 2019 I was writing here and there. And it's kind of a funny thing because when you do something every day it starts to seem obvious. And so I would write some and I think part of what was happening was again, I'm still in the oven, I'm still baking, I'm still coming around on the top, you know, And so more of what I do in response to like issues that would come up. There are plenty people that can do it right away. And there are other people that have resistance or other people, you know, troubleshooting steps even. And even toward the end of the book, I was able to write an advance chapter. Here's ways to accelerate. If you're able to do this and it's working, here's some acceleration tools, right? So part of it was supposed to be that way because I was still developing, but part of it was that I start writing and after a while it seemed just kind of like this just seems so obvious and it doesn't feel as important. And then I would get some ruin my schedule. I would take a few people off my waiting list. I'd have some new clients. I started describing our it takes on through the process and they're like, mind blown. Oh my God, this is life changing. I can't believe it. I would see, like, this amazing thing happen and people are like, Whoa, you just rocked my world. And I'm like, I need to write about this. And that happened regularly. I would like, lose steam and it wouldn't feel as important because it seems obvious because I do it all the time. But then I get new people and it would like really make a major shift again. And you know what? Especially when they're first introduced to it and and they would not understand this stuff intuitively. I'm like, Yeah, I have to write about it. And it just kept reinforcing how important this was. And I went into, I think 

22, I don't know, 22 Yeah, I went into what's what years it now. It was 2021 when I really got focus and I was writing a lot. 2022 was all editing and then 2023 was some learning about the business. Get my cover, get a professional editor, did all this stuff. So, so it was a whole process, but I wanted it to be good. My thing about the quality control in the book was not perfectionism, but I've never done a book before and I wanted it to be professional because you ever see a self-published book where the idea sounds good and the delivery is so junky that it's hard to look past it, to appreciate the ideas. I don't I want it to look like a professionally done book because I don't want mistakes or delivery to get in the way of the ideas, because I feel the ideas are life changing. So I really wanted to make sure it was done well. 

Rich Bennett 31:32
When your book is self-published. 

Ruth Fearnow 31:34
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:35
Really? 

Ruth Fearnow 31:37
Yeah. It's the bomb to. 

Rich Bennett 31:40
The cover's phenomenal. 

Ruth Fearnow 31:42
In it though. 

Rich Bennett 31:43
It is. 

Ruth Fearnow 31:44
Happy. 

Rich Bennett 31:45
Wow. I didn't realize it was self-published, but. Oh, you're doing. 

Ruth Fearnow 31:49
Your one here. An Easter egg for my book. 

Rich Bennett 31:52
Absolutely. 

Ruth Fearnow 31:53
If you look on the spine. Well, there's what looks like a crossroads. And if you were somehow able to super focus in its little bitty footsteps on the cross or the tiny little blip as footsteps on the crossroads and says Mike LaRue publishing, Mike LaRue is the beginning of the names of my family. Michael Lennon, Ruth O Gap. 

Rich Bennett 32:18
Michael Lennon. 

Ruth Fearnow 32:20
Ruth. Ruth. Mike LaRue, Publisher. 

Rich Bennett 32:23
I love that. 

Ruth Fearnow 32:24
Me too. I like. 

Rich Bennett 32:26
That. Wow, You got to get a tattoo. This is it. Don't tell me you already have one. 

Ruth Fearnow 32:33
I know, okay. I don't. But maybe I'll get it right there. 

Rich Bennett 32:38
So with the with you being self-published and it just came out in May, what's been the hardest thing for you? You know, because you're self-published, you don't have that publisher that's helping you. You know, you're doing all the marketing. You're doing everything yourself. What's been the biggest struggle so far with getting the book out there? 

Ruth Fearnow 33:02
I think if I was pushing for it to happen faster than it's happening, then it would be more of a struggle. Maybe the struggle at moments is what I do next and having faith it's going to go. But at the same time, it wasn't me that told me to write this or handed me the process right. This goes beyond me. And so like whatever you believe, God, Holy Spirit, Source universe hires that omniscient being so the publishers and it doesn't go anywhere. It's not my fault it's on them. 

I 

Oh. 

Rich Bennett 33:39
My God, this. 

Ruth Fearnow 33:40
Is for maybe this is just for me. But actually I have a really deep intuitive sense that it is going to go further than this. It's I mean, you know, I could be famous after I'm dead, for all I know, but I think it's going to go further. I think I'm going to be teaching more. I've had a few other people that believe that, and so I don't have to worry about all that because one is not in my hands in the first place. My only job is to show up and do what I'm supposed to do, right? So sign up for podcasts and I poke places to speak and I'm speaking for free right now. Better catch me soon, because one day. 

Rich Bennett 34:18
I was going to say, You need to start charging. 

Ruth Fearnow 34:21
Yeah, but right now, you know, I'm speaking, I'm doing workshops oops, I'm my job is to show up. And so that's what I'm doing actually. 

Rich Bennett 34:31
Have you have you thought about doing the TED talks or TED talks, I guess. Okay. 

Ruth Fearnow 34:36
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I hope that that a little bit. And when that's the right thing, I see that my future. I already know what the talk is. If you look at my book, at the Swallow chapter, that's the talk. This will describe why what we're doing doesn't work and why we need to allow in the body as the location where we can heal. That's the TED talk. I already have it in my head. It's already there. 

Rich Bennett 35:02
I love it. I love it. So with your book and I know you said it's for you, but who would you say your book is actually for? 

Ruth Fearnow 35:14
I think the people that are going to get the most out of my book, one in my hand. The ideal is new clinicians, new therapists, because in I can tell you that going to school, there's not really a solid theory or thesis or understanding of what heals. There's gases, there's component ends, there's little research bits here and there. All of them took a big stab at them For anybody who's a clinical student and here's your arm, it might make them retch a little cause he's hard for people to swallow. I loved his work, but he's very intellectual and very big, big picture thinker. So he took a stab at it. But I have, after saying all the theories, haven't figured this out, I believe I have. Sounds pretty high on myself. But you know what? I'm not about false humility. And I do believe I have I believe that healing the component, the mechanism of change for healing is self-compassion. And that may sound obvious, but let me put it this way Judgment blocks healing. 

Rich Bennett 36:21
Mm. 

Ruth Fearnow 36:22
But only 100% of the time. Judgment blocks. And alternatively, self-compassion facilitates healing. 

And that's the basis. And I can discuss, you know, I could go into discussing what happens when you're doing therapeutic mindfulness without the judgment. You start not judging things and watching the feelings change and shift and grow and you gain an understanding of them. And what happens is deeper judgments about yourself start to drop and people start to develop compassion in this process. They sometimes are never selves for having illogical feelings. What what other kind of feelings are their right? And they start understanding them and judgment and compassion comes and it starts to heal. Just the fact of being with yourself in that wholehearted way. There is something there that is like the kind of thing you can possibly do for your heart and your soul, right? Oh, that is the mechanism of change. And the way to do it cannot be logical because you can't solve an emotional problem with a logical solution. So we get out of the story into our body where the feelings are and we open up with complete allowance and your subconscious mind knows how to do the rest. I know I'm throwing a lot at you. Fact, I forgot what question you asked. 

Rich Bennett 37:44
Who the book was for. 

Ruth Fearnow 37:46
That's why I would like it to go to new clinicians, because you're going to get a fundamental tool that can help a lot of people in a fundamental theory on healing. And then even a lot of experienced therapist. It took me a while to get to this point. The second group I think it should be for is seekers. Anybody that is actively working on change. There are plenty of people that are not interested in change. This book is not for them. If you've got that person that has no interested in change in their life and you want to give them my book so they can see the light, I don't know that, you know, it'll work one day, maybe it won't. I'm not mad if you buy the book, but the real people that it's more is people that are into change, people that are already doing meditation classes, already reading self-help books because they see this and they start realize, here's something you can actually do. And that's the difference. And it's there's so many self-help books that they give good insight. They do really well in describing the problem. They help people feel like they're not alone. But then it's like, okay, now what do we do to heal? And that was the last page and you don't have it. There's very little out there. So sorry, might be super offensive right now, but I feel like those have the value in terms of helping people understand they're not alone. And maybe some understanding leads to less judgment. But there's still just I wrote this because I feel like there's a gaping hole in the literature about you got to let go of feelings to have compassion. Great. How? How? That's the question. And this is a big part of the answer. 

Rich Bennett 39:27
Is there going to be a follow up book? 

I think there needs to be like one with the stories of people that you have helped using this. 

Ruth Fearnow 39:40
You just gave yourself away. I know that the book I sent you never got to You and someone stole it off your porch or whatever ran away chuckling. But there's stories in there. I have it. There are. Book. The whole book. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 39:55
Are you sure. 

Ruth Fearnow 39:57
You totally gave yourself away. I mean, I know you didn't read it because someone took it. 

Rich Bennett 40:01
I was going to actually I was going to let everybody know about that. So, yes, at least Ruth is not lying. 

Ruth Fearnow 40:09
That. 

Rich Bennett 40:09
She sent me the book. I did. And I have no idea. I don't think anybody I don't think somebody took it off the porch. 

Ruth Fearnow 40:19
I think I made it. Did your dog eat it? 

Rich Bennett 40:22
No, no. I'm probably going to get yelled at for this. I think that it may have happened during one of our beer bourbon barbecues. I think somebody picked it up and walked off with it. 

Ruth Fearnow 40:35
Maybe, which. 

Rich Bennett 40:37
To me is fine if we if they learn from it, that's, you know. 

Ruth Fearnow 40:42
Yeah, but I do have examples throughout. The whole book of different points that I make. I have examples like, for example, what can you expect when you start doing this process? And I have examples of that. I have examples of people that have lots of crazy emotional stuff and people have very static, limited emotions in their body. I have one when I go into the urge to fix and what happens when you try and not fix and deal with the emotions of that? I've got a case study on that. I've got case studies on that show how illogical something can be and how quickly it can change. I'm yeah, every point I make throughout the book, I'm adding case studies from my caseload. 

Rich Bennett 41:25
Can you share with us one one of your favorite stories from the book? 

Ruth Fearnow 41:32
There's a part where I'm describing this whole thing about we are so you can't you can't solve an emotional problem with a logical solution and we get mad at ourselves. This is in the self-compassion chapter. We get mad at ourselves because we have these emotions. They're they're big, they're dumb, they're interrupting our lives, are messing up our relationships. I don't know why I do this. I know better. I've told myself I wouldn't do this anymore. And then it happens and I do it again. What's wrong with me? I suck as a human because apparently we're supposed to turn 18. And now that we're an adult, we're supposed to have no irrational feelings and just perfectly logically wander our way through lives, doing everything right. That's what we want ourselves. And then when it's a really, really, really big reaction, the bigger reaction and the dumber it seems in context, the more we judge ourselves. And so the whole thing is when someone's talking to me about something like this, like this, and they're like, Oh, this is kill me. I don't know why it happens. It happens every time. It's not logical. And I say correct, it's not logical, it's emotional. And that's why we need to deal with it on an emotional level. And so I tell a story about a man and his daughter and the daughter 

she's, I don't know, six or so writes about this. It's almost like a fly phobia. You know, He puts her to bed, comes back into the room later, and she is literally terrorized, jumping around like this because there's a fly in the room and it's like, I don't know what to tell you. I can't make bugs. Not happen. I can't. Right. But he's really he's he's really compassionate and he understands. So he takes her into another room and he sits with her and calms it down and she's shaking. She is shaking. She literally terrified again. Makes no sense. Logically dumbest thing ever. And yet fear is valid. Fear of the fly is not specifically valid. Right but something's going on. Fear the the human experience of fear is valid and needs to be acknowledged. So he sits with her and after a while she calms and her nervous system soothes and all that stuff. And then he starts talking to her and starts to find out that on the weekends, when she goes to visit her mom, conflict has escalated and she starts to talk about scary things in her life and fears that are there. And the fear is valid, but it's not. The story isn't valid, but it doesn't mean the fear isn't valid. A kid doesn't know how to say, I'm worried about being while I'm here with you that something's going to happen to mom at her house or that things are going to get violent. She a kid doesn't say that. They just express fear that's in their. And guess what? Adults do the same thing. So when you have emotions that are like this, that are you're so angry because it's showing up and and freezing, how you deal with work or deal with a partner or deal with whatever, and you're so frustrated with yourself about something because it's so out of proportion. It's not about the fly, 

it's not about the fly. And the problem is not the fly. The problem is the fear and if you can go to where the fear is and heal that the fly is no longer a problem, huh? 

Rich Bennett 45:09
I'm going, Wow. It's funny you mention that story because my daughter's like that of she's got a fear of just flying insects and if she. Ash they had the electronic racket. 

Ruth Fearnow 45:27
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 45:28
Wow. So actually, I love the storytelling, but how important is the storytelling in your work and actually how do you use it to connect with and help other people? 

Ruth Fearnow 45:43
Just whenever people are going through something or one of the basic things that therapy that that is helpful is for them to not feel like they're some kind of, you know, freak like, you know, just to know that this is a this is a thing that happens. This is part of the human condition. And so, one, you're not alone. And two, there are ways to deal with it. And people find that very comforting. So just on intuitive basis, I'm somebody that speaks very fluidly when I'm in practice. And so when something comes up, if it feels, you know, my mind will free associate to stories, and if that feels helpful, then I'll share with them a little bit and share a story about somebody or myself or whatever. And like this is this is a thing that happens and here's where we go with it. So, for example, if there was this phobia and I bring up for the fly story, it's like, you know, I know the phobia seems really scary, but the fear is actually what we need to deal with. Your body's carrying fear and it's expressing it this way, but this is not the problem. The fear is a and then I can relate that back to what's happening and say, So here's what we do next. Because as you can hear, my process is very practical. I don't throw out stuff unless there's somewhere we're going to go with it because I'm healing the source. So storytelling is an integral part of how I relate. 

Rich Bennett 47:00
What is I? If you've had to talk to God knows how many people, but what is one of the strangest phobias you've actually, I guess, help somebody 

with? 

Ruth Fearnow 47:15
I've had you people with a metal phobia, a fear of vomiting. 

Rich Bennett 47:19
Fat, white. 

Ruth Fearnow 47:21
Fear, vomiting. 

Rich Bennett 47:22
Really. 

Ruth Fearnow 47:23
Now, there are a lot of people that have issues with vomiting and there is a lot of disgust and maybe some fear with it. But I have had two people that this fear is so intense. One of them looked like when I first saw her walking to my office, I thought I was going to have to do an assessment for anorexia. Wow, it wasn't anorexia. She's afraid to eat. 

And I've had more than one person like that. The fear of vomiting, though, is such a displaced phobia that's so heavy into trauma that I are the first one unfortunately moved and I wasn't able to get from afar enough to help with the phobia. The second I was able to make. We were able to make a lot of headway on some areas of her life with deep trauma work, but I can't say honestly that we made a lot of headway on the phobia. Right. And the thing about phobias, if you know what you're afraid of, that really is a lot better in therapy. But when I hear of a phobia that has nothing to do with what's actually fearful, to me, that's a red flag. And I know we've got some deep stuff because somebody just pushed what scary down so intensely that and the fear still in their mind. The fear, the fear is going to express regardless. You put stuff down. The fear will still express and so is going to create this other thing to be fearful. And they will be so hyper fixated on this. This pain needs to be bigger than their entire trauma load to keep their attention. So phobias can be very, very tough. I did have someone with Misophonia, which is the it it's described as a fear, but it's a really, really strong reaction to noises. And I mean really strong bringing up intense anger or intense anxiety. And now I have done some deep trauma work with people with that phobia. Phobias by the way, for anyone listening probably goes beyond just therapeutic mindfulness. You want to therapeutic mindfulness and stuff that's a little lighter, but for full on that one, you want to be getting extra help for, right? I recommended EMDR therapist, but this one through doing the work on the reaction to the sounds, some other associations starting coming up and over time we were able to find a source and the source really brought up a lot of terror when the person first started to realize where it lived. Because a phobia. A phobia. Absolutely terrifies and freezes you. So whoever is buried, the phobia needs to be bigger than that. So whatever's buried, they can't look at it more than that phobia that the fear of the phobia is eclipsed by the fear of facing the suppressed thing. So phobias are deep. Yeah. We went on down a rabbit hole there. And that that one, I would suggest people actually have professional help while they're working through it. 

Rich Bennett 50:35
But you and correct me if I'm wrong, but you actually deal with people that have had some type of trauma in their lives. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. 

Ruth Fearnow 50:43
Yeah, that's my focus. I'm a trauma therapist. 

Rich Bennett 50:45
So I thought and I don't know if you can answer this or not, but 

because talking to all these different people, it's going to I would think it's has some type of effect on your mental health. So what do you do for yourself besides a meditation? What do you do for yourself? Because I would think in a way, you almost have to clear your mind sometimes after each session or whatever. I just know, like talking to some people I've had on the show, especially if they're going through recovery. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes. So, I mean, what do you actually do for yourself to help to help yourself? 

Ruth Fearnow 51:27
Well, if I do have a really strong emotional reaction to a client, so then I will do therapeutic mindfulness. And I'm not because I practice what I preach. I'm not telling anyone to do anything that I haven't done. I've been the recipient of EMDR therapists. All right. Therapy. I do therapeutic mindfulness. So. So there's that. But in general, it's not that hard for me almost all the time. And it's really more of a philosophical view about how I see the world, how I live, what is our purpose here? 

When someone tells me something horrible which happens on a regular basis? Again, there are a few things that that can bring up emotion to me, but for the most part I find it very inspiring. It's like, think about inspirational stories and inspirational story is not. Everything's always been good for me, and so I'm happy. That doesn't usually inspire us. We like stories of overcoming yes, if I didn't believe in healing, if I didn't understand that healing can happen and will happen, then I would be overwhelmed by this stuff. But I do believe in healing. I do see people changing and so the bigger stuff they bring to me, the more inspiring it is. It's like, Whoa, that's your trauma and you're here facing it. You're here to see me so you can face that. And you're saying it out loud to a near stranger. Yeah. Wow. I mean, that's inspiring. And Then when I see the stranglehold of those symptoms start to release, and that's inspiring. And when I see people do the hard work to get there, that's inspiring. So, you know, it's probably not an accident that I didn't go straight into this field because I wasn't convinced when I was 20 and 21 that you can heal stuff, that people changed anything. I wasn't convinced. And as I would ironically, somehow I was always into pursuing my own growth privately. And I think after I made some headway and after I gained some, you know, a spiritual foundation for how I believe and what we're here for it stop. I started to believe in healing. And then the next thing is, okay, so I'm supposed to be a therapist. How do we do this? And maybe that's why my approach is different, but I am not bogged down by it. You know. 

Rich Bennett 54:06
You really love what you do, don't you? You too. I can tell that. I could tell. That comes across and there is something very special because, you know, not everybody loves what they do, but you do. And I want to thank you for, you know, everybody that your help and and everything you're doing because you are making a difference. And that's that's it. Again, I think when you love, you're doing it's easier for you to make a difference. Other people see it and it just it's like a domino effect. Yeah, it just goes on. Oh, he said. Positivity breeds positivity and you can feel the positivity coming off you and oh, Oh God, I love it. I love it. So the very important truth, even though you said it was. But tell everybody again, your website, how they can get in touch with you and how they can get your book. 

Ruth Fearnow 55:03
Okay, My book is on Amazon, Barnes Noble, all the platforms. It's called Therapeutic Mindfulness. My website is Ruth Fisher. Now, dot com fear now is spelled like it sounds f, e r and on top of you. So there's a link to my book there. There's a link to some podcasts there, and then there's a download page with things that are in the appendix of the book, and you can take a look at those body focusing questions and the basic process. But the book has a lot more in-depth stuff and like I said, Amazon's the easy one, but it is it is published and available. 

Rich Bennett 55:42
Everybody, once you get her book, well, number one, don't let anybody walk off with it. But you get her after you get her book and read it, make sure you leave a full review of it to I guess something like this probably is in an audio form. Is it? 

Ruth Fearnow 56:00
I the the first draft of audio is done and I either need to learn how to edit or or it kind of nudged my my dear partner who's a studio rat to get his book on the project. I just hold on him now I'm going to be in trouble. I'm going to Starbucks. To. Atone. 

Yeah, yeah. Actually he mentioned this one. I was like, Get back to that. I need to listen to that chapter. So it's in the works, but it's okay. As honestly, again, priorities, what I'm focusing more on is I'm continuing to talk about it. And so getting the audiobook, I do want that to happen, but I just feel like getting more people aware is the priority now. So that's where my focus is. Going to be for. 

Rich Bennett 56:47
Well. 

Ruth Fearnow 56:48
Maybe next year. Cross our fingers. Oh, well. 

Rich Bennett 56:50
Hey, well, so before I ask you this last question, next time you ever make it back this way, look me up. We got to hook up for lunch or something. 

Ruth Fearnow 57:00
That. 

Rich Bennett 57:02
We're probably sitting there talking for hours, but that's okay. That's okay. 

Ruth Fearnow 57:06
That would be. Awesome. 

Rich Bennett 57:07
So you've been on several podcasts now, out of all the people that all the hosts that you've talked to, is there anything a host has never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be that question? What would be your answer? 

Ruth Fearnow 57:27
No, I don't have anything for you. 

Rich Bennett 57:30
Sorry. 

Ruth Fearnow 57:33
Cheater 

and pumpkin eater. Yeah, I just. I just. I just know how it goes. We get to the main points. It works out. I mean, it works out how it's supposed to the. So if you get creative and think of something great. But otherwise I've been really happy with my experiences sharing all the different podcasts. It's been a good time and. It's really cool. 

Rich Bennett 57:57
It is fun. Was there anything you would like to add. 

Ruth Fearnow 58:01
Since. 

Rich Bennett 58:01
Apparently there's no me and I wish I would have came up with an off the wall question to ask you now. 

Ruth Fearnow 58:07
The you know what? If we ever do this again and try your best to throw me off, you can put me on the spot. You have my permission. Of course, if you try that, you have no idea how experienced I am. 

Rich Bennett 58:19
That's why I'm not going to do it. 

Ruth Fearnow 58:21
I got to say, I've only been speaking about the book since the book, but I've been doing this for a hop. 

So, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 58:30
Not going to try and I'm going to try. 

Ruth Fearnow 58:32
But anyway, so anything I want just, I want people to read it, but I want people to practice it. One thing that I really emphasize in my book, there's a few times where I'm kind of poking the reader. So we try to get that. We try to get, we try to get I do that. And the reason is and I say very clearly in the conclusion that there is no intellectual understanding that can replace the experience of this, try it The last person that I had to review the book is a therapist who I've never met. I'm on this national Facebook page for therapists, and I said, Hey, everyone, I have a book coming out who would be willing to give me a review in exchange for a free copy, give you that and just give me an honest review. And she said, This is a therapist. She says this, I go to therapy as well, and this has enhanced my personal growth personally, and I use it with clients. It. Wow. So wonderful. It sounds cool. I know that I have a way of speaking that draws people in. I know that. But I'm telling you, even as cool as it may be for people that like my style of speaking, nothing replaces experience. This came from beyond me and it is powerful. So use it, try it, practice it. That is the message I want everyone to have. You don't even have to buy the book, download it and practice it for free. But try it. That's it. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:01
I love it. Ruth, I want to thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. And again, thank you for everything you're doing. 

Ruth Fearnow 1:00:08
You're so welcome. And thanks for having me. This is really in-depth and I'm, as you know, it means a lot to me to share this because I think it's important. So thank you for giving me that venue to do so.