Shannon Lawrence's Journey Through Horror and Fantasy

Rich Bennett 0:01
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett, and today I want to welcome the incredibly talented Shannon Lawrence, a connoisseur of the dark and fantastical. Shannon's writing spans horror and fantasy, capturing the imaginations of her readers with tales that are as eerie as they are captivating. Her work graces over 50 anthologies and magazines alongside four solo horror collections and a non-fiction guide on the short story business. As we anticipate the release of her debut. Actually, I think your book will be out when this releases, right? Myth Stalker. When do your nights. 

Shannon Lawrence 0:46
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 0:47
Okay. And we're recording this March 14th. So yeah, we'll definitely be out. And Shannon also throws listeners with her Cohosted podcast mysteries, Monsters and mayhem and Adventure Heart. She finds inspiration in the wilds of Colorado, proving there's no story too chilling to tell or mystery to deep to explore. Wow. 

Podcaster, author. 

Shannon Lawrence 1:18
Mom. 

Rich Bennett 1:21
Am I missing anything? I mean, God, what else? Where do you have? Plus. Plus, you work full time, right? 

Shannon Lawrence 1:29
Yeah. So I work for I. I'm in Colorado. I work for a company in Arizona remotely. And that company is harm reduction. And I do bookkeeping type stuff there, so. 

Rich Bennett 1:41
Harm reduction as in for addiction recovery. 

Shannon Lawrence 1:44
Yeah, Well, so what we do is we focus on distributing basically naloxone, which is it's basically a medication that can stop an O.D., an overdose. 

Rich Bennett 1:57
Really? 

Shannon Lawrence 1:59
So and we and 

Rich Bennett 1:59
Almost 

Shannon Lawrence 2:00
we 

Rich Bennett 2:00
like not. 

Shannon Lawrence 2:00
also. Yeah, it is. It is Nakano one of them, but it's injected. And I think Nakano is the nasal one 

Rich Bennett 2:08
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 2:08
or the. Yes. So we also we have both. But what government grant funders will give you is the naloxone, because it costs less with the syringes. So we do a lot of that distribution and distribute stuff to folks who are house housing scarce. And it like necessary like shampoo and can do. 

Rich Bennett 2:31
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 2:32
Water and all that good stuff. Yeah. So that's what we 

Rich Bennett 2:35
How 

Shannon Lawrence 2:35
do. 

Rich Bennett 2:35
long you been doing that? 

Shannon Lawrence 2:37
I have been there two years now. 

Rich Bennett 2:39
Two years. 

Shannon Lawrence 2:40
The company was started by really intelligent Hayley Coles. She was young and she started this company on bicycles. 

Rich Bennett 2:51
Or what? 

Shannon Lawrence 2:52
On bicycles distributing. These needed 

Rich Bennett 2:55
Wow. 

Shannon Lawrence 2:56
items. Yeah, but she's passionate about it. 

Rich Bennett 2:59
Now, were you always in field? 

Shannon Lawrence 3:02
No. Well, so since I'm doing bookkeeping stuff for them, I've done that for a lot of different companies. 

Rich Bennett 3:10
But this is a first time doing something for addiction. 

Shannon Lawrence 3:13
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 3:14
Interesting. Yeah, we I mean, we talk about addiction, actually, we're the number one podcast when it comes to addiction. 

Shannon Lawrence 3:23
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 3:23
Yeah. We talk about a lot, and I think so. Well, now that just means you're going to have to come on again and bring the founders on as well. 

Shannon Lawrence 3:32
Right? Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 3:33
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 3:33
Oh, it would be great on a podcast. 

Rich Bennett 3:37
So I love to ask this question. When you were younger in high school, was it always your goal to be an author? I knew you. I know you did. Your goal wasn't to be a podcaster because I believe you're like me. You know, We didn't know what they were yet. 

Shannon Lawrence 3:54
Nope, not that. Think about elementary school, early elementary school. I did like fake newscasts, but I did not want to be a pastor. So I remember building like a cardboard box. 

But yeah, I did want to be an author from pretty early on. And so that was already it was always kind of a I want to be an author and whatever my role was then, but it's always been there. 

Rich Bennett 4:21
Interesting. So were you writing for the school newspaper and stuff like that? 

Shannon Lawrence 4:25
I did. I did. Off and on. I did a middle school in Maryland, and I 

Rich Bennett 4:30
When. 

Shannon Lawrence 4:30
and 

I. I moved around. I moved around. So I was in Maryland. Yeah. For middle school. And so I was. 

Rich Bennett 4:40
Well. 

Shannon Lawrence 4:40
There. 

Rich Bennett 4:41
What part of Maryland? 

Shannon Lawrence 4:43
I was in Columbia. Are you in Maryland? 

Rich Bennett 4:46
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Columbia's Howard County. 

Shannon Lawrence 4:51
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 4:51
Two counties away from me. 

Shannon Lawrence 4:53
That's funny, because I saw the crab on your shirt and I was going to ask him that. I thought an Alaskan. And I was like, Oh, no. 

Rich Bennett 5:01
So I take it you went to college afterwards for writing? 

Shannon Lawrence 5:06
No, actually. 

Rich Bennett 5:07
Oh. 

Shannon Lawrence 5:07
I didn't go back to college. I got married at 18. 

Complicated, but we were all actually we were both probably quasi adults when we were like five or so. And then at that point, when you're 18 and married and neither of your families have money, you're just, you know, you're just working and trying to survive, basically. So, no, I didn't go back to school until much later. And what's funny is my degrees are in psychology and business management and business administration management. So no writing. 

Rich Bennett 5:43
But here's the thing. Business management. Business administration, I think, is very important, especially if you want to be as as I like to call an entrepreneur. Where. Because it is a business which you're. And I can't believe how many authors I've talked to, and they don't look at it as a business and that you need to. 

Shannon Lawrence 6:07
Yeah, that's the tricky thing, right? That's. So you mentioned I have a nonfiction book and it's about the business of short stories. And I did. That was a big marketing chunk because that's what I kind of. 

Specifically looked at, but also business stuff because one as a bean counter for a career, it's not it's not bad to have that degree. And I was getting those jobs for a while before I had a degree, but it opened up more. 

But yeah, I put that book out because I was like, Listen, you have to do some of this. I with this creative field. I don't want it to be killed. And that's. 

Rich Bennett 6:49
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 6:50
You have to balance those two, because if Iraq becomes all business, then it's not worth doing anymore. In a lot of ways. 

Rich Bennett 6:57
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 6:59
But you do have to know certain things and you do have to work certain things like your business and every author, even if you've got a big publishing house, is to having to do their own marketing. 

Rich Bennett 7:09
Hmm. 

Shannon Lawrence 7:10
So yeah, those are all really important. 

Rich Bennett 7:13
Yeah. Yeah. It's and that's another thing I even tell local authors because a lot of them don't know about getting on all these podcasts. They try, they, they want to stay local. So I know you have a book that's on. People can buy it from the Internet, get on podcast throughout the world and promote your book. That's and that's free marketing. 

Shannon Lawrence 7:39
Right. I. 

Rich Bennett 7:40
A lot of them are missing. I'm sorry, but I may get some podcasters upset at me about this. But all you listen, if you want to get on a podcast, especially authors and a host is you to pay, tell them to take a hike. 

Shannon Lawrence 7:55
Yeah. You have those. And it's 

Rich Bennett 7:57
Yes. 

Shannon Lawrence 7:57
just like in writing, too. If the market wants you to pay, that's not what you're. That's not what you should be doing. You don't pay. 

Rich Bennett 8:05
Exactly. I. I want to. I want to get into the horror stuff. 

Shannon Lawrence 8:11
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:11
So what's the most unusual source of inspiration you've encountered for your horror fantasy stories and actually how to evolve into a finished piece? 

Shannon Lawrence 8:22
Oh, no. Let me think about that for a second, because 

Rich Bennett 8:26
Sure. 

Shannon Lawrence 8:26
inspiration comes from a lot of places, right? 

Rich Bennett 8:28
Oh, yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 8:31
It can come. Just. 

Oh. One of my I won't say it's the most unusual, but one of my early stories was just hearing about an urban legend in Estes Park, Colorado. Up in the mountains, they have an urban legend about the blue mist. And so I'm looking this up. I'm like, Oh, that's great. We have our own urban legend. Let's look that up and all it would say is this blue mess would creep down the mountains through the trees. And I was like, And them 

and nothing. There was nothing else to what? The blue. It was like. Everybody's 

Rich Bennett 9:07
Why? 

Shannon Lawrence 9:08
afraid of the West. And I'm like, Seriously, this isn't a good urban legend. So I had to write a story about it, and I called it the Blue Mist, right? But I was like, okay, well, I'm going to decide what happens then, because that's there's no payoff from this urban legend. 

Rich Bennett 9:23
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 9:24
Yeah, So I wrote that one and it was fun because, you know, of course there were, there was something in that mist. It's like, maybe Coloradans will see this and B, Wait, is that the one? It is the one near. 

Rich Bennett 9:36
And that was a short story. 

Shannon Lawrence 9:38
What's that? Yeah, that was a short story. 

Rich Bennett 9:40
Okay. And that's the thing. There's I like that it as an urban legend, because there are so many urban legends out there and you never know what happened. And when you mentioned that, I keep thinking of Edgar Allan Poe's grave gravesite, because it's every year, I think for Ray Ray, his birthday, somebody always leaves a I think it's a glass of cognac or something on his grave and nobody knows who does it. 

Shannon Lawrence 10:09
That's great. 

Rich Bennett 10:10
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 10:11
Someday it'll stop, But maybe somebody will do it and pick it back up. 

Rich Bennett 10:16
I don't think it's ever stopped. 

Shannon Lawrence 10:19
All right. 

Rich Bennett 10:20
Yeah. I mean, it's just. Yeah, 

Shannon Lawrence 10:22
Now, I 

Rich Bennett 10:24
it's good. 

Shannon Lawrence 10:25
know. 

Rich Bennett 10:25
You 

Shannon Lawrence 10:25
I'm 

Rich Bennett 10:25
were right. You want to write 

Shannon Lawrence 10:27
just. 

Rich Bennett 10:27
a story about that, don't you? 

Shannon Lawrence 10:29
No, but for real, Like this cloaked family, you know, they pass it down the line and they're like, Somebody must always put the cognac. It must. 

Rich Bennett 10:37
It's I don't know if it's cognac or whatever. It's some type of drink, but I just I think people have even sat there waiting and have not been able to see anything. And then the next day there will be the glass. It's. Yeah, it's there. Oh, my God. Please tell me you've written other ones about urban legends. 

Shannon Lawrence 11:01
Well, it kind of depends. Right. So I don't think I've written any others about a specific urban legend. But there's there's horror movies out there. I've seen the one. Oh, what is that? The hitchhiker done. How many different ways? Right. And I love those. There's always some great new spin on that, but I haven't done that one myself yet. 

Rich Bennett 11:26
I think you ought to create your own urban legend. 

How have the world religions come about? Somebody had to tell a story somewhere. 

Shannon Lawrence 11:35
Right. Somebody I figure in a bar most of the time. You know what happened to me? 

Rich Bennett 11:41
Maybe that's why there's so many Irish urban legends. 

Shannon Lawrence 11:45
That could be. 

Rich Bennett 11:49
I can say that. So. 

Shannon Lawrence 11:51
I mean, my name is Shannon Laurence, although my maiden name was not Irish, but. But. 

Long ago. 

Rich Bennett 12:00
Oh, God. 

Shannon Lawrence 12:01
It was Irish. 

Rich Bennett 12:02
So in blending elements of real life experience. With the fantastical, How do you find the balance so that your stories feel grounded yet still eerie? 

Shannon Lawrence 12:15
Yeah, that's a good question. I think it is having it in real world situations that makes it eerie in a lot of ways or scary because, I mean, the whole thing is, is that I'm asking, oh, what if in this situation and I'm answering it and man, things can go wrong at any second? That could 

Rich Bennett 12:35
Uh 

Shannon Lawrence 12:35
be. 

Rich Bennett 12:35
huh. 

Shannon Lawrence 12:36
Any second. And so putting it that's it's funny because I kind of have that in workshops about or is don't sit there and set every story in the graveyard or with the big haunted dark castle. 

Rich Bennett 12:50
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 12:52
Because in some cases that's going to work and that's great. But if you set it in the everyday real world, then you're already hitting something familiar for the reader. And then you're going to hopefully tear that away, this normalcy that they're seeing in the setting. So, yeah, you go into it and you make things familiar and you make the character known as quickly as you can, because if you don't care about the character, you don't really care what's going to happen. 

And you go from there, then you take that away from them. You make sure that they know that nowhere safe. 

Rich Bennett 13:29
Yeah. I have to ask you this. I hate asking this question, but when it comes to horror, I just have two. Who? I'll say three who are your three favorite authors when it comes to horror? 

Shannon Lawrence 13:45
So that's changed over the years. I do have to mention Stephen King, because he was the he was my big first horror author. 

Rich Bennett 13:53
Well, what you just mentioned about the castles and everything. You don't see that in Stephen King novels. 

Shannon Lawrence 13:59
No, he's in like rural Maine. 

Rich Bennett 14:01
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 14:03
And with these normal folks and everything's going wrong. So yeah, it's that everyman kind of horror and that's why he's become so big. I think. And then, of course, Shirley Jackson was somebody I discovered. Next, the haunting of Hill House. I'm always afraid I'm going to get it wrong because the movie names switch everything around all the time for. 

Just turn into the haunting, I think, in the movies. And now I have I'm going to name two more because 

Rich Bennett 14:35
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 14:35
the. I've been reading more and that's Stephen Graham Jones, and he is also a Colorado author. 

Rich Bennett 14:42
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 14:43
And Jeff Strand is another one I've been reading a lot of now. So. 

Rich Bennett 14:49
Jeff Strand. 

Shannon Lawrence 14:50
Yeah. He also writes a lot of comedic stuff and he has an adventure series. He writes a lot of stuff. Pretty prolific. They both are. Stephen Graham Jones, also prolific. 

Rich Bennett 15:03
And now when I go to interview them, they're going to mention your name as 

Shannon Lawrence 15:08
No, 

Rich Bennett 15:08
one of their favorite. 

Shannon Lawrence 15:10
no. 

Rich Bennett 15:12
After they read your book. 

Shannon Lawrence 15:14
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 15:15
They were. 

So can you actually share a moment in your writing career where you faced a challenge and how you overcame it? And what did it teach you about creative beauty or resilience? 

Shannon Lawrence 15:31
You know, I had. So my dad got diagnosed with ALS. And I think people know better a lot as Lou Gehrig's disease. 

Rich Bennett 15:40
Yeah, 

Shannon Lawrence 15:42
And at the time my kids were pretty young and I was really just getting into the writing career and all of that. And I went I ended up going to help my mom. I went and I went through a senior course. I got certified and they were aware of why I was taking it. So they were really good about during our clinicals, which is at the end of it, when you go to work at an actual nursing home and or a hospital or something and get in these real hours 

Rich Bennett 16:10
right. 

Shannon Lawrence 16:11
with that during clinicals, they made sure that I was in there with a lot of different situations so that I could actually have hands on experience with stuff and so I had just in my clinicals ended up dealing with two patients who were lost. Right. Who died during that time. Right. Because they put me with somebody in hospice so that I could see how to do that. And then they had me in that ALS ward to the Alzheimer's ward and. My job and there ended up being they knew with Alzheimer's. A lot of times they know, you know, it's the end, 

Rich Bennett 16:47
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 16:47
they'll stop eating. And so I was with a patient who had stopped eating and my job was basically to try and get a little sustenance into her, a little water into her. And so that it was great training, but it was rough. Certainly didn't. 

Rich Bennett 17:01
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 17:02
And because the focus was so much on. All right, you will be taking care of somebody dying. Let's get you into that with hands on experience. So, yeah, during a time like that, he lived six and a half years with it before he was like, Yeah. And I keep saying taken. And before he died, I think euphemisms for. 

And he did a lot, actually. So I would like to write a memoir about him someday. But that was hard. That was hard trying to get these little kids through. They were so young, and most of their time their grandpa was dying. 

Rich Bennett 17:41
Yeah. Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 17:42
Most of their time with him. He was dying. And it's a really nasty disease. If somebody is unaware of how that works, because, you know, mental faculties were great, but physically you couldn't do anything. And you. Watch somebody's waste away because little by little they lose touch. The brain loses touch with this bank of muscles or whatever. And then by the end, he was in a wheelchair that supported his head because that that musculature is gone. He was had a tube in his stomach and he was on a breathing machine. You know. So and again, he had his computer. He was he offered himself as a guinea pig to all these companies to just try things out for them. He worked. 

Rich Bennett 18:25
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 18:25
Please send an email us. And he's actually on the website. And as somebody who did a lot of work, there's a medical protocol named after him. It's the entire protocol and. 

Rich Bennett 18:37
Oh, wow. 

Shannon Lawrence 18:38
Well, because what they learned the hard way 

Rich Bennett 18:41
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 18:41
is we had paramedics out to the house quite a few times. Their friend and the things that a paramedic normally does, which is lay somebody flat on their back that will kill an ALS patient after. 

Rich Bennett 18:55
Got live on their side. Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 18:58
Well, keep them somewhat elevated, you 

Rich Bennett 19:00
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 19:01
know. So. So he ended up with a friend forming this protocol and that friend is still alive who has ALS in touch with him. And he's made sure that my dad's name has been mentioned and in different places. And he's gotten the credit for the things he did. 

Rich Bennett 19:16
Good. 

Shannon Lawrence 19:17
But anyway, all of that was a lot. You know, it's hard. You're watching your father die. And he was an active and seemingly intelligent, always had to be doing something. And so being wheelchair bound and not even allowed to speak eventually and or even breathe on his own, That was rough for him, too. And you'll see that a lot of ALS patients are also being treated for, say, depression. Right. Because it's rough. So that my writing, I still was able to do it some during then, but there were times where that took a major hit and. 

Rich Bennett 19:55
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 19:56
And it wasn't even say no time. I didn't have a lot of time, but it was. 

Rich Bennett 20:01
To get your mind into it. 

Shannon Lawrence 20:02
Yeah, it's hard. Creativity takes a certain amount of emotional energy, and I just didn't have it a lot at the time. So it was it was embracing it. When I had that urge, when it was like I could write right now and then doing it right. So I wanted to make sure that I didn't give up everything. 

Rich Bennett 20:22
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 20:22
Time, but I think it did set me back. So where would I be now if that hadn't happened? Who knows? But. 

But you have to look through. 

Rich Bennett 20:35
If you don't mind me asking. Both of my parents were on home hospice. My mother with cancer and my father with lupus and asbestosis. 

And I'll be honest revealed what helped me get through it. And actually a lot of my family, because we passed this one book around, 

was 

one book for the family that we passed around. Even my mother, she she loved it. Of course, faith and then with me was also the second book. The second book for me was The Secret by Rhonda Byrne. That just helped me because it teaches you to align yourself with the law of attraction, keep the positivity around you. The other one and when you mentioned the yellow, the ALS, this is and I'm sure you've heard this about the book Tuesdays with Morrie. 

Shannon Lawrence 21:33
Yeah, I haven't read it, but I have heard. 

Rich Bennett 21:35
Oh, we because I saw the movie. First movie was really good. And then I got the book. Then first book I read that actually made me cry. I didn't cry during the movie. I cried reading the book. And then, you know, here's my mother laying in bed with cancer, and I gave it to her to read. And it she went into remission. 

Shannon Lawrence 21:57
Really? 

Rich Bennett 21:58
Yes, she went into remission, so I'm hoping that faith helped. Of course, I yelled at her after she went into remission because she started smoking again. And then lo and behold, the cancer came back. But yeah, that book went around not just within our family to other people. And it's a book like that I wouldn't have thought would help people cope with things, but it did. And I think it's because more Schwartz talks about Whoop more ish, which is the one that had it. But he just 

what was. It reminds me of what you just said about your father. He just. He didn't want to stop. 

Shannon Lawrence 22:38
No. And 

Rich Bennett 22:39
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 22:39
he didn't complain. Ever. 

Rich Bennett 22:41
No. 

Shannon Lawrence 22:42
Email. 

Rich Bennett 22:43
Yeah. And that's just. But with you was there. What was it that actually helped you get through all that? Because I know that's tough. 

Shannon Lawrence 22:53
Yeah. Yeah. You've been there. So 

Rich Bennett 22:55
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 22:55
it honestly, it was just first of all, I think he himself helped us get through it as much as possible because he wasn't feeling sorry for himself and, and he was just forging through and he was still doing his thing, and he was not going to let it set him back. So it's really hard to be I don't none of us could really just sit there and mope on the side. 

Rich Bennett 23:21
Right? Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 23:22
It got on well. Matt And so that was a big part of getting through it. And then of course, having my kids being so small. I was taking them and doing stuff with them as much as I could and. There's a lot to do. I live in Colorado Springs and we could be outdoors constantly doing something. Ah, we have all these museums and all these neat things to go see. So we were doing that and I think that they're a big part of what got me through it. And of course, my husband. Yeah. So. And my husband had been a caretaker for his dad his whole 

Rich Bennett 23:58
Really? 

Shannon Lawrence 23:59
life. His dad had hemophilia, so. Yeah, and. 

Rich Bennett 24:03
Wow. 

Shannon Lawrence 24:05
Before that, before meeting him and coming into that family. The only thing I knew about hemophilia, I think, was that there was that czar's son, right? That we hear about. 

Rich Bennett 24:16
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 24:16
And Alexi at anyway, I had very limited knowledge about it. I didn't realize how much it impacts somebody on a daily basis. It's like, Yeah. And he was immobilized in a lot of ways. There was a lot he couldn't do. So. My husband had been there. My husband had been taking care of his dad his whole life. He had been working from a young age because he had to have it be able to pay utilities and stuff like that. So, of course, he was a great support, too, because that was just that was just what his life had always looked like. 

Rich Bennett 24:47
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 24:49
Yeah. So it was really people I think that mostly got me through it. And I had friends. I was never one. Also, I'm really not about somebody says, How are you doing right now? I'm like, I'm great. Like, everything's fine. They're like, How's your dad? I'm like, He's doing really well. That was it was constantly what it was like. And there were those people that were that. Mm. Yeah. No. How are you really doing? 

Rich Bennett 25:11
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 25:12
How is your dad really doing? What's going on? And there were a handful of people that were there for that. And one of those is my co-host on the podcast. So she was very much there for me through all of them. 

Rich Bennett 25:25
Yeah, that's. It's funny you mention that, because. Yeah, people always ask, How are you doing? I could always tell when my father was not doing well, because I would say, Hey, how are you doing? A number one. But I. If he said a number one, he was not doing well. 

Shannon Lawrence 25:41
It wasn't bad. 

Rich Bennett 25:41
He was a paid software judge. I just do it now. If I went over there, he'd say, How are you doing? Oh, good, good. Hey, can you make me a scotch or water? Because you make it the best. Here you go. Trick me. A granddad's. 

Shannon Lawrence 25:56
Well. All right. All right. 

Rich Bennett 26:00
Oh, God. So with when your father passed, how even though you're. Yeah, you're so right. And I know you could it be a full focus there? How long before you actually able to get back into full focus and back to writing? 

Shannon Lawrence 26:15
So I'm the oldest of five kids. So funeral stuff, all that came down to. 

Rich Bennett 26:20
Uh huh. 

Shannon Lawrence 26:21
Taking care of that and taking care of mom was a big thing. She had been she had had all these emergencies and health issues and stuff before that. So it completely blindsided us when it was dad that was dying. And so I had to make sure that she was okay, get her out of the house and do all of that, too. So there was definitely a delay. And I would say it was probably at least a few months. And then he died in 2019, in May. And so less than a year later, we're shut down with COVID. Right. And that I had I had started getting into it. So it had been a few more months and I was once again submitting things. I was once again selling stories. And then in comes COVID to our lives. I had a pre-teen and a teen and yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:20
Oh, gosh. They're both in school still. 

Shannon Lawrence 27:23
Yeah, they were. 

So that was crazy. 

Rich Bennett 27:28
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 27:29
There's a lot more that came with that. 

Ripping them out of school for that period of time, putting them online school. My son thrived in that atmosphere. My daughter did not do well and they were both excellent students before that. 

Rich Bennett 27:43
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 27:43
No problems in school. And it shut her down completely. 

Rich Bennett 27:47
Oh, God. 

Shannon Lawrence 27:48
And it actually led to her being diagnosed with with autism, because then I clearly saw how stuff I'd been missing because my teachers had missed and everything. A big part of it was she and I had a lot of the same traits. 

So, yeah, it turns out I will be getting tested as well. But I have not diagnosed with autism. But yeah, we've had the same traits. So I had just taught her my coping mechanisms all her life. No big deal. I hadn't taken her and I was like, okay, you know, you you have, for whatever reason, the same issues I have with stuff. But that complete shutdown and I do mean complete shutdown. It took she didn't smile for a couple of years. I mean, the way this hit my dad died and they'd been dealing with that for six and a half year. And a year later, my grandmother died about two weeks before everything shut down. And so it was a lot for my kids to deal with, a lot for everybody. 

Rich Bennett 28:48
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 28:49
Deal with. But yeah, I was just kind of the final straw for her. And she shut down. No smiling, no talking, no interacting. She stopped reading. She stopped drawing because she's an artist. 

Rich Bennett 29:01
Oh, 

Shannon Lawrence 29:01
And we got this diagnosis and we did everything we could. And now she's great. Thriving little Maya sunshine, baby girl. But 

Rich Bennett 29:09
good. 

Shannon Lawrence 29:10
that was rough, too. 

Like trying to get her back, but. Yeah. So again, just a lot of things hitting right and shutting me down. And but sometimes here is the thing about that is the art. Sometimes being able to dive into the writing was part of what was helping during. 

Rich Bennett 29:30
Therapy. 

Shannon Lawrence 29:31
Yeah. And so, hey, I can put myself in this other world and I can do. So it's kind of funny because while would shut it down sometimes. Sometimes I could do it and it was great. And it was what was actually helping in the background too. Right. So yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:48
The thing is, if you write in horror and fantasy, it just gives you so many ideas. You know, to write about. And yeah, so somebody that's writing romance, maybe not so much, you know. 

Shannon Lawrence 30:04
Yeah, right. There's nothing romantic in any of these. 

Rich Bennett 30:07
No. 

Shannon Lawrence 30:09
You know 

Rich Bennett 30:09
We 

Shannon Lawrence 30:09
what? 

Rich Bennett 30:09
just started dating. This pandemic came and we were locked in the house together and. Then it becomes a horrible, horrible. 

Shannon Lawrence 30:18
Right. Like I would get outside. Like when restaurants started doing all the outside dining and stuff. I was like, I 

Rich Bennett 30:25
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 30:25
am here further. Let's get out and let's sit outside. 

Rich Bennett 30:28
Huh? So what do you believe horror and fantasy genres can teach us about the human condition or society at large in other genres may not. 

Shannon Lawrence 30:38
Oh, man. So much. Because here's the thing about we'll say it. We'll talk about horror specifically because even more so, I think it does this. And and horror is a commentary on whatever's happening socially. With humanity in general. And again, you have to be able to care about the characters, so you have to have very real characters in horror. And that's just the very real people right there. So I mean, you can look at more obvious ones like Get out, for example, and see what that was saying about society and about what a chunk of the population had been dealing with and putting that into a form that was easily digested. Well, for somebody who maybe never could have identified with that before. And that is what horror does. It's. We'll say almost always some sort of commentary, right? Even if you look at slashers, it was still a commentary. It was still. 

Rich Bennett 31:39
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 31:40
People were being teams were being punished for their regular normal teen behaviors. Right. They were. They were going out partying. They were having sex. If you have sex in a horror movie, you have to die during that time period. And the slasher. So there's always a commentary, but I think that probably it wasn't so much a commentary on, Oh, these things are bad. It was a commentary on how society was judging these. 

Rich Bennett 32:05
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 32:06
Right. So, yeah, horror just in general. That is what it's doing. That's what it's setting out to do. It is a commentary on society. It is a commentary on things that people deal with, but it's it's entertainment. And that's what it's doing too. It's setting out to entertain you, but maybe make you think about things afterwards. 

Rich Bennett 32:28
You're your new book, Myths Stalker. Is it Wendigo Knights? 

Shannon Lawrence 32:33
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:35
Now, that's fantasy, right? That's not a horror or. 

Shannon Lawrence 32:38
It's urban fantasy. It's urban fantasy. So when I discovered urban fantasy, and I'd like to say it was around 911, actually, it's right around there because I know where I was living. And so I can't remember the. Yeah, but I remember where I was living when I started writing it, and it was Laura Hamilton was the author I discovered first, which led me to a bunch of other awesome urban fantasy authors like Kelly Armstrong. And but it blurs it. It's it's fantasy with these great horror elements that are in it, but it's not setting out to scare you. It's setting out to normalize everything. Right. Like, this is just what's happening in the background and people just don't know it. This vampire's real, this and that. So, yeah, this one's urban fantasy. So it has a world. That's because it has Wendigo in it. And I still had a friend who could not read horror, and I'd asked her to pay to read it. I always have battery. 

Rich Bennett 33:33
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 33:34
And I. 

Rich Bennett 33:34
Mark. 

Shannon Lawrence 33:35
Yeah, I asked for some, like I want some writers to read it, but I want some complete non writers to read it and get notes from both of them. And she couldn't finish it. She was like, No, it's still too much. It's still too much. And I'm like, Really? What's that? It is because it's not. It's not like that. It's not horror. And I'll say that right now. But yeah, I mean, Wendigo is a creepy thing and she's haunting this creature and trying to save a loved one who's turning into this creature because Wendigo is basically a spirit that takes over. Yeah. And and it's evil. It's evil. And a human nature loves a wendigo. But for in terms of people not so great. And in general, while there are different ways to become Wendigo and to be, it's kind of like possession four along those lines, just not from a Christian point of view. Right? And 

there's a lot that has to be done to be able to take care of somebody and stuff, but it's unstoppable. That's the whole premise of the story. There's no way to stop this progression. And now she's got a somebody who typically goes out and knows how to kill. 

Rich Bennett 34:46
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 34:47
Creatures have to suddenly figure out how not to kill this person. And yeah, so it has the horror elements on it, and it has this creature that's in there. So. 

Rich Bennett 34:59
So when Hollywood contacts you. Who do you want playing the leading role? 

Shannon Lawrence 35:04
The man who would be Selina. It would have to be a Native American actress, because she is. She is mixed. Of course I am as well. So I will never. I wasn't going to write her as full Native American. 

Rich Bennett 35:20
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 35:21
Well, because I'm writing from my own experience, I made it very much a point of making that clear. And so it would have to be a Native American actress. So I'd have to see. I would have to be an unknown. 

Rich Bennett 35:35
Okay, wait a minute. Back up a minute. You say you're writing from your own experience. 

Shannon Lawrence 35:39
Well, not with Wendigo. 

Rich Bennett 35:41
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 35:42
Although I will tell you this, since we talked about this, I was writing this before my dad got diagnosed. And weirdly, the way his body was progressing was far too similar to how the Wendigo was happening right when the. 

Rich Bennett 35:59
Really? 

Shannon Lawrence 36:00
Akin to a wendigo. It was too similar, and I did set this aside for years. So this this book is honestly, for me, it was me taking back that time and taking back that experience and finishing this project that I had to shelve because it became too hard with with just the similarities. I was sitting there writing something Every time I write this person that she cares about who is a father figure to the character. And again, this was before his diagnosis that I was writing this. It was that was far too close to home. So I had to set it aside and do something else. And this was me saying, I can do this now without being destroyed. So, yeah, that's. 

Rich Bennett 36:42
Wow. 

Shannon Lawrence 36:43
Kind of a big chunk of it. So this one's personal in a lot of ways. 

Rich Bennett 36:47
What made you decide to write a novel? Because you'd been writing short stories all this time. 

Shannon Lawrence 36:53
Oh, yeah. And I love them. And. 

Rich Bennett 36:55
Yeah, 

Shannon Lawrence 36:56
I managed to forge a writing career in a way that's different from a lot of people, not all of them. Ray Bradbury started with short stories, and Stephen King, of course, has a ton of short stories, 

Rich Bennett 37:06
right. 

Shannon Lawrence 37:06
but he didn't set his start with Carrie. But 

I just. Wow. I just forgot the question. 

Rich Bennett 37:14
What made you decide to write this novel? 

Shannon Lawrence 37:17
The novel. Okay. Instead of short stories. Yeah. So I had been writing them. I had been teaching about them. I had written a book about actually forging this new career without having to write novels, because when you go to writing conferences, it's all a novel, novel, novel. They don't they they don't teach you that there's any other way to have a writing career that is changing slowly. But. 

Rich Bennett 37:39
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 37:40
Locally it is because I started going and talking at these conferences and doing short stories. But but I had written I had written another novel, Trump novel. I had written the other ones or I had started other ones. And just for my life and for my mental state and my short attention span, short stories works really well, but I wanted to really explore and learn the novel form too. And. 

Rich Bennett 38:07
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 38:08
Again, I'd read another one. So this is not my first one. I've written that, just the first one that's going out to people. But it was time to get back to that and revisit it and write that novel and learn because as a writer you need to be learning all the time. And I personally feel I need to be trying different things all the time. 

Rich Bennett 38:27
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 38:28
So I've been reading novels all my life, right? So I wanted to do it and I've got all kinds of ideas that wouldn't work as a short story and would work for a novel that I was setting 

Rich Bennett 38:40
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 38:40
aside. So it's time to embrace those. I've done my thing. I made myself a career with short stories I can so time to do something else and stretch myself in a different way. 

Rich Bennett 38:51
So you're already working on the next novel is what I'm. 

Shannon Lawrence 38:55
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I have one that's being edited. It is horror. It's not urban fantasy, but it's tongue in cheek. It's a horror comedy. 

Rich Bennett 39:04
Oh, I love that. 

Shannon Lawrence 39:05
Me, too. 

Rich Bennett 39:07
All of your horrors are comedies. I mean, I am sorry, Freddy. Freddy Krueger was always the best. I loved his one liners. 

Shannon Lawrence 39:15
Yes. So cheesy and yet so magnificent. Yeah, that was my favorite of the Slashers was Nightmare on Elm Street. 

Rich Bennett 39:23
Huh? 

Shannon Lawrence 39:25
Yeah. And then, of course, the next book in this series, because it's a series and I have a mystery series that I want to write. So yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:33
Oh, I love it. So tell everybody the name of the book again. 

Shannon Lawrence 39:37
It's myth Soccer When to go Knights. 

Rich Bennett 39:40
So those of you listening when you purchased the book after you read it, make sure you leave a full review, whether it be on Amazon. Good reads wherever you get, wherever you can leave reviews at, because that's just going to drive the algorithms up and of course help Shannon sell more books. You are. You also teach about writing, right? Right. Teach about writing. Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 40:09
That's right. 

Rich Bennett 40:11
Yeah, that was the correct place. 

Now I take it you do that virtually so anybody can get in contact with you or. 

Shannon Lawrence 40:20
I haven't recently. I also teach at conferences. I do. 

Rich Bennett 40:24
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 40:24
Panels at Cons, so I haven't done anything online recently, but I have and I will do. 

Rich Bennett 40:31
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 40:32
So yeah, I do a lot on short stories, a lot on horror, but also business again, business stuff concerning writing. 

Rich Bennett 40:43
Do me a favor to tell all aspiring authors and even current authors that don't do this how important it is for beta readers. 

Shannon Lawrence 40:54
Oh, I think that that it's incredibly important. Even if you have a critique group that's reading it to readers, it's different when they read it and you can get feedback from actual readers. That's my big thing. Like I said earlier, I believe in splitting it so that there are writers because they're going to see different things. Then the readers are. But most important is the people who are just, I don't want to say just, but you know, their readers. They're not writers because they're reading it the way most of your audience is going to be reading it. 

Rich Bennett 41:27
The. 

Shannon Lawrence 41:28
Oh, 

no. I was just going to say, like we writers are also reading constantly if you're not reading. Writing. But 

we. We're also going to read each other's work. We're also going to read it as readers, hopefully. So getting those reader readers in there alerts you to problems that you can't see because you're basically blinded to your work 

Rich Bennett 41:52
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 41:52
to a certain extent after you've sat there and worked on it forever and probably read it, edited it about a billion times. So they help. 

Rich Bennett 42:02
Now with your bad readers, do you ask them to leave a testimonial as well? Because or a review or whatever you want to call it? Because I know a lot of times when people see that in a new book, it helps sell the book. 

Shannon Lawrence 42:14
I should. I haven't been. So I. Yeah, I should be doing that. 

Rich Bennett 42:20
Well, but you're using your bad readers, I guess, in a way a little bit different. I know some people, some authors will use a meter reader after the manuscript is done in the books about to be published, but before it goes out. Where is your use and beta readers? More or less as a critique group, which is also important because, Oh my God, you have to have people besides just your regular editor look over your your book, because even editors miss things. You know, and somebody could say something. Well, Al, I like bringing this up. You know, like you could be writing something about Jack the Ripper. It'd be just something simple. Like here he was walking down the hot tar pavement of. Well, ain't no news are all cobblestone streets. 

Shannon Lawrence 43:11
Right. 

Rich Bennett 43:12
Can't but some. But readers can pick will pick that stuff up. And yeah, it makes a big difference. Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 43:22
All kinds of things like that, little nitty gritty details, things that are missing in. Hey, you brought this thing up and then you never tied it up like it never came up again. Why was it in there? Those are the things that you really want them to do. And I always give a specific list of questions. You know, I want them to be. And I said, But can you keep these things in mind, too? Because those are the things that might be the most concerned about. Do you like the love interest or is he just a jerk, you know? 

Rich Bennett 43:51
Okay. So I have to ask you this because I just think it's awesome. First of all, a not many authors are doing this. 

Your podcasts, mysteries, Monsters and Mayhem. What made you decide to start that? 

Shannon Lawrence 44:08
We had my co-host and be part Partlow, and I had been doing live events and we ran them for the local, a local writers group called Pikes Peak Writers. We ran a variety of free events for writers every month, and we had to switch that to online. So suddenly we're not here with us. We're used to being in front of audiences and we're used to talking to people and being social and doing all this, and suddenly we're all stuck at home and I just I was listening to podcasts and I was like, You know what? We could do this. Do you want to do this? And she said, Yeah, let's do this because she likes a mike more than I do. So. 

So yeah, we just said, All right, let's give it a try. And I did the research and got everything started. And here we are. We just started the season seven. 

Rich Bennett 45:04
I figure. Well, 100 and over 160 episodes so far. Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 45:08
Yeah, we actually, I just. Episode 165 will go live on Friday. 

Rich Bennett 45:14
Well, I have to tell you this. Congratulations, first of all, because you have a successful podcast. And what I mean by that is a lot of your pie, a lot of a ton of podcasts started during COVID. I think the number went from 700,000 up to 7 million. A lot of these podcasts are no longer around. And the hardest part, one of the hardest parts, believe it or not, I think is getting to like ten episodes. 

Shannon Lawrence 45:45
Oh. 

Rich Bennett 45:45
You're over 100 episodes. That's considered successful because a lot of people don't even make it that far. It's amazing how many remember you mentioned Dead Air earlier. 

Shannon Lawrence 45:59
Yes. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 46:00
It's amazing how many dead air podcasts there are out there now. I think now the numbers like a little act as far as active podcast. I think there's over it might be over 3 million podcast, but out of those 3 million I think it's only 

I want to see 300 maybe 300,000. I don't even have the numbers that high of active podcast. 

Shannon Lawrence 46:25
Oh, wow. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 46:26
Oh, yeah. It's. 

Shannon Lawrence 46:28
7 million for a first. 

Rich Bennett 46:30
What's that? 

Shannon Lawrence 46:31
That was a huge drop from because you said it went up. 

Rich Bennett 46:33
Oh, yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 46:34
No, man. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:35
Well, here's what happened, because during COVID, nobody had anything to do. 

Shannon Lawrence 46:40
No. Right. 

Rich Bennett 46:41
People are listening to podcasts. They're like, Oh, I could do that. Well, a lot of people have gathered to the podcast for you realize it's not that easy. 

Shannon Lawrence 46:49
Now all. 

Rich Bennett 46:50
It's a lot of work. 

Shannon Lawrence 46:51
Work? Yes. 

Rich Bennett 46:53
A lot of work and you have to love it. And would you guys are doing you and your co-host love what you're doing 

and you're familiar with your Gothic. 

Shannon Lawrence 47:05
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 47:06
So Season seven is about to start, you said. 

Shannon Lawrence 47:10
Yeah, we just started season seven. What's funny? Cause you said that so many of them had died is that I was to a point where I was like, okay, I got to shut it down. Not because we didn't have listeners, but because it's a lot of work right now. And I was doing that on top of publishing and day job and family and all of that good stuff. And I went to a con at Mile High Con up in Denver. I go there every year and I would do my panels and I introduce myself and I let them know I'm an author and also a podcaster. Name the podcast. And afterwards I had a bunch of people come up to me and be like, I didn't realize that was you. I listened to your podcast and and somebody she well, she made her husband. She was like, I told, you can't be here when I'm talking to her. And so he walks away and she was like, I have to tell you how much it means to me and and how much I've learned and all this. And she said, it's like sitting out with friends every week. And I was like, and I had just I had just decided, you know, to end it. And I was like, I can't tell her I'm ending it. Like, I can't do that now. And so we did switch from weekly to once a month so that I could kind of I can focus on some other things and but still have that podcast. And then we made it a longer episode, right? So to kind of fulfill that. But yeah, I was like, Oh, well, all right, we got to keep going, you know? 

Rich Bennett 48:34
The good thing is because you're in that true that true crime genre 

Shannon Lawrence 48:38
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:39
and. A lot of your true crime podcasts are seasonal. 

Shannon Lawrence 48:43
Oh, 

Rich Bennett 48:43
So you 

Shannon Lawrence 48:43
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 48:44
get that. You get that little break. Yeah. Which something is needed a lot. I, I actually just took a break recently. Because we went away. We went to New Orleans for a week and I was told I was not allowed to work while we were down there. And Shannon, I'm telling you, I was going freaking crazy because I've never been to New Orleans before. And it's the first time I've flown since 1995. 

Shannon Lawrence 49:11
Oh, wow. 

Rich Bennett 49:12
All these people I meet and everything I've learned that they're there is a. I just went my equipment so I could just sit there and start recording like, Oh, God. 

Shannon Lawrence 49:25
I could see that being a frustrate like. 

Rich Bennett 49:27
It was it was very frustrating. 

Shannon Lawrence 49:30
Because there's a there's a wealth of just human interaction in New Orleans. Right. There's. 

Rich Bennett 49:35
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 49:36
So many different kinds of people. 

Rich Bennett 49:39
Oh, I loved it. And now granted, I did record that week, but the show had I, I was still able to schedule my episodes to drop Monday, Wednesday and Friday. 

Shannon Lawrence 49:49
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 49:50
But I did take a break from releasing episodes. It may be right around Christmas or right after Christmas because of me playing Santa Claus. I was. This this past December was crazy because we had an extra weekend, so I had more dates. But yeah, it was it was crazy. Now, the good thing is if you're podcast have you ever been on good page? 

Shannon Lawrence 50:17
No. 

Rich Bennett 50:18
You have to go with good pods. It's like to me, good pods. No, I don't get paid for saying it. Good pods is like Billboard meets social media. So it's a chart. They have their charts of of where your podcast ranks. But people can also comment on not just your podcast, but each episode and you can reply back to them. So it's you can make list. There's so many things you can do it, but your podcast is in the charts on good parts. 

Shannon Lawrence 50:55
Oh, okay. Not. 

Rich Bennett 50:56
Yes. 

Shannon Lawrence 50:57
So I. 

Rich Bennett 50:58
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cheers. Check it out. And, yeah, congratulations. Because. Yeah, you guys are are still doing it, and I love it. Don't stop doing it. 

Shannon Lawrence 51:10
Thank. 

Rich Bennett 51:10
Stop doing it. And actually, you're only I think you're the second person I've talked to that does true crime. 

Another one I've. 

Shannon Lawrence 51:20
Popular for. 

Rich Bennett 51:21
Yeah. Oh yeah. And another one I've had on. She's from, I want to say, Alabama. And her and her co-host went out to I think it was England, not too long ago for a look almost like a true crime con or whatever out there. 

Shannon Lawrence 51:40
Okay. A field. 

Rich Bennett 51:41
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. But no in her pockets is very good as well. I just. The true crime pi case. I just. I love, I listen to all types of different pi kids. 

So with your with your podcast, because I would love to see more people. I would love to see more authors start their own podcast because you got with your podcast, you got so many things you could talk about in and you got. Do you actually get guests on at all? 

Shannon Lawrence 52:13
We do. And that was something we changed when we went to monthly is we would 

Rich Bennett 52:18
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 52:18
just have an August. And usually it was just the two of us having our banter. And then now there is the guest every time. So we have that a guest every month. 

Rich Bennett 52:27
So how many stories are you getting out of your podcast? 

Shannon Lawrence 52:31
Right. Just from the you know, what's 

Rich Bennett 52:33
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 52:33
funny is I'll go to research something, and while I'm searching for that something, other things come up, right? A little. Worries that I can't do a whole podcast on, But man, yeah, there's plenty of ideas to hit. Like, especially because you just see a headline and without reading the article, you get a story idea from the headline. It's not going to be anything like what it actually happened. But yeah, there's a ton of ideas in that and. 

Rich Bennett 52:57
Oh, yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 52:58
With that research all the time definitely popped up ideas. 

Rich Bennett 53:02
Well, before I get to my last question, number one, tell everybody both of your websites for your podcast and your other website for your books and how they can get in touch with you if they want to have you come and speak or whatever. 

Shannon Lawrence 53:17
Okay. Yeah. So the mystery, the podcast is Mysteries, Monsters and Mayhem, and that website is mysteries, monsters, mayhem, dot com. And ah, so we also have Instagram and Facebook so that can be found from that. Well, I make sure that you can get where you need to go from the website for each thing. My other one is the Warrior Musical. And again, all my social media is on there. I have more as an author than I do, but I still focus on Facebook. 

Rich Bennett 53:45
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 53:46
Three of those are mine. Those are the real ones. And all of my books can be found on there. My appearances can be found on there. And I also have a page. Well, I just lost the term, but I have a page that has all my information so that people can reach out to me in a contact form on the website. So people can reach out 

Rich Bennett 54:06
Good. 

Shannon Lawrence 54:06
to. 

Rich Bennett 54:08
So is there anything you like to add before I get to the last question? 

Shannon Lawrence 54:12
I don't think so. 

Rich Bennett 54:13
Okay. 

How many podcasts have you been on now so far? 

Shannon Lawrence 54:19
Oh, just. 

Rich Bennett 54:25
Just 

Shannon Lawrence 54:25
So like for this book launch I've probably been on, I'm trying to think how many have actually aired. I have some recorded that aren't coming out, that are coming out. 

Rich Bennett 54:36
Well, not just for the book launch overall. I mean, do you know how many podcasts you've been on as a guest or even TV interviews? Radio interviews? 

Shannon Lawrence 54:44
Probably 

Rich Bennett 54:45
Or rephrase 

Shannon Lawrence 54:45
we'll hear about. 

Rich Bennett 54:46
that. How many times have you been interviewed? 

Shannon Lawrence 54:49
We'll see about 20 is that's that's 

Rich Bennett 54:51
Funny. 

Shannon Lawrence 54:51
the number. I'm going to put it out because I really only discovered going on other people's podcast I'd say in the last couple of years. 

Rich Bennett 54:59
Okay. 

Shannon Lawrence 54:59
Yeah, the last two years, maybe three time has become very blurry for me. So we'll say three. So I. But I only reach out if I think I can have a good conversation, you know? Or I imagine I could be on more, but I try to make sure that I'm actually going. I don't like to throw I'm not pasta. I'm going to throw it against the wall and see what sticks. 

Rich Bennett 55:21
The other thing is, and I think this what this can hurt people is they tried to get on too many podcast. 

Shannon Lawrence 55:27
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 55:28
And you're. I mean, great. I know, I know. There's, you know, podcasts reach different people and you want to get all your information out there, but at the same time, it could burn you out. And you don't want to do that. 

Shannon Lawrence 55:43
Easily. And 

Rich Bennett 55:44
Yeah. 

Shannon Lawrence 55:44
what also, I don't want to burn out. I have you know, you have like those loyal folks that'll listen to anything you're in. They will read anything you put out. They will. And I don't want to burn them out. I've made it very much a point of being on different kinds. 

Rich Bennett 55:59
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 56:00
Like, I'm not just going to go on a writing podcast all the time and say the same things over and over again. So I think that's important. I think that people need to be looking at that because I wouldn't keep listening if somebody I followed was just having the same conversation over and over. 

Rich Bennett 56:13
Right. 

Shannon Lawrence 56:14
Over again. 

Rich Bennett 56:15
Oh, yeah. If you have somebody who's asking the same questions all the time, just, Oh, I know what she's going to say to that. 

Shannon Lawrence 56:21
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 56:22
You know, which leads me to this. Out of all the interviews you've been on, is there anything that a host has never asked you that you wish they would have asked you? And if so, what would be that question and what would be your answer? 

And no, you're not allowed to say that. What I just said was the question. 

Shannon Lawrence 56:44
No, but it is a good question. It is a question that's going to make me think cop. 

Rich Bennett 56:49
I do it 

Shannon Lawrence 56:51
Lots of people never ask because I also do blogs and so I do like author interviews on blogs and stuff like that. And I know for a while it was always the same with the same questions over and over. And then people started realizing and asking interesting questions. 

Rich Bennett 57:07
right. 

Shannon Lawrence 57:07
And I love that. So what if they never asked me? I don't know. You know, Like what? Nobody ever really asks, What would you be doing if you weren't writing? And it would be a tricky one to answer, because I've thought about telling you what it's it's a it's a career full of rejection and stress and a lot of work. It's not an easy one. It looks like it in the movies. But are a lot of them? Not all of them. If Stephen King wrote it. Chances are it's not an easy career. Was it secret Window? Secret, I think. And that was based off Secret Windows, Secret Garden or something like that. But. But what's funny, because I brought it up and I'm like, Now, can I answer it? Because it would be really hard. I've thought about. I've thought about quitting at times. It's like, why do I do this to myself? Why do I set myself up to be rejected all the time and stuff like that? But then I think I would love to just go out and do more of my photography and. 

Rich Bennett 58:12
Oh. 

Shannon Lawrence 58:13
It's a hobby on life, but I love outdoor photography. 

Rich Bennett 58:17
Yes. 

Shannon Lawrence 58:18
And so I could see. Doing that instead. But then knowing me, I would just then turn that into the into a career so I could ever just do anything. Apparently. But I think that that it would still be a creative pursuit, right? That I would have to use that creative energy somewhere else. 

Rich Bennett 58:39
Yeah, 

Shannon Lawrence 58:40
So. 

Rich Bennett 58:40
well, know that if you're if you're out there photographing today, you'd be freezing to death for that. 

Shannon Lawrence 58:46
Yes, Although I have some great pictures. I live near a park called Garden of the Gods. 

Rich Bennett 58:51
All 

Shannon Lawrence 58:51
And it's all this old sandstone and limestone and stuff that got, you know, there was seismic activity to make mountains. 

Rich Bennett 58:58
right. 

Shannon Lawrence 58:59
And I live in the foothills of the Rockies, and Garden of the Gods is there. And it's just it's ancient rock that's been pushed up. So. 

Rich Bennett 59:08
Oh, 

Shannon Lawrence 59:08
It's absolutely gorgeous and it's red because of various processes. These 

Rich Bennett 59:13
right. 

Shannon Lawrence 59:14
are red rocks and. I've gone there to photograph. Like what? It's all blizzard because it's. Oh, it's gorgeous. And there's big horns there. I got the big horns in the snow one time. So yeah, 

Rich Bennett 59:26
Why? 

Shannon Lawrence 59:27
I'll tell you what. 

Rich Bennett 59:28
Wow. Well, actually, when we're done, I want to talk to you because. I want to mention something else to you as well, but I want to thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been a true it's been a true pleasure. It's been fun. I, 

Shannon Lawrence 59:43
Yeah, thank. 

Rich Bennett 59:44
I. Everybody make sure you again. Get her book books. Not book, just books. Get all her books. That's all he ever. It's okay. Make sure he make sure you leave a full review and also with the podcast. Listen to her podcast. If you use good page, go ahead and leave reviews on each episode because this is just going to help her and her cohost to figure out what to talk about next. Just like with, you know, with authors have Trisha in it. Believe me, people, it helps. It definitely helps a lot. So. Shannon, thank you so much. 

Shannon Lawrence 1:00:23
Thank you.