Susan Beth Miller’s Journey Through Psychology and Fiction

Rich & Wendy 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning ten this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared an episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we shared laughs, tears and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next ten years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios. Harford County Living presents conversations with Rich Bennett. 

Today, I'm going to get kind. 

No, no, no. The truth is. 

Rich Bennett 1:01
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett, joined, of course, by my lovely co-host, Michelle Hayes. Today, we are honored to welcome Susan Beth Miller. Susan is an accomplished writer and clinical psychologist whose work spans fiction and psychology. Her latest book, by the way I Love You, that's the name of the book, Michelle might say. By the way, I love you, I. 

Michelle Hayes 1:28
Oh, I love you, too. 

Rich Bennett 1:29
But. 

It is her first y a novel and has been making waves since its recent release. Susan's writing explores the complexities of emotions, relationships and self-discovery. In addition to her novels, she's authored psychology books on topics like shame, disgust, all in fascination, as well as a self-help book for teens when parents have problems. And by the way, I love you, Susan tells The Point the story of a young woman navigating the challenges of college life while grappling with the pain of losing her mother. It's a powerful exploration of identity, grief, friendship and even environmental activism. Susan also brings her expertise in psychology and a passion for environmental and social justice to her work, making her insights as compelling as her stories. I get it all there, Susan. 

Susan Miller 2:31
Thank you, Rich. That was actually a terrific introduction. I appreciate that. 

Rich Bennett 2:37
Okay, I'm done now. I'm. 

Susan Miller 2:41
Hmm. 

Rich Bennett 2:42
So, Suzanne, before we get into the book and everything, I always like to learn a little bit about the person. So, you know, growing up, what what was it that you always inspired to do for your career when you were growing up? 

Susan Miller 2:59
Okay, Well, you know, I found something one day that I had written when I was young about what would you like to do? And it was a whole array of things, some of which I. I didn't exactly recognize in myself later, But I think the interest in writing is something that has deep roots. I was interested in writing long before I knew what the word psychology meant, or had even a remote idea what a psychologist did. So that does go back a long way. I attribute that in part to teachers who sparked an interest in me. 

I think as a kid, like so many kids, really, I like to make things, you know, and I've had experience. You make things out of clay, or maybe somebody gives you some paints and you make something that gives you pleasure. And when I was about, well, I must have been nine, I was in fourth grade with Mrs. Miller, and she gave us an assignment that led me to the conclusion afterward that you could really make something with words in a way 

Rich Bennett 4:22
Mm hmm. 

Susan Miller 4:22
that I never understood before, that I didn't apparently do a great job with it. I didn't get a great grade either assignment, but it just opened up something in my imagination. This idea that you could be in charge of those words and create a picture or create a character, put an idea out there. So I 

Rich Bennett 4:47
Right. 

Susan Miller 4:47
think that was as far back as I am able to go with respect to interest in writing. And of course, again, like lots of kids, I did love to read, so I discovered all kinds of worlds that other people had created with their words, so that was a big contributing factor as well. 

Rich Bennett 5:10
So when did you write your first book then? 

Susan Miller 5:17
I 

Rich Bennett 5:17
Let 

Susan Miller 5:17
tried. 

Rich Bennett 5:17
me rephrase that. 

Susan Miller 5:18
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 5:19
When was your first book published? 

Susan Miller 5:21
That is a really different question. 

Rich Bennett 5:23
Yes. 

Susan Miller 5:24
The first book I, I started to write when I was 12. A book I 

Rich Bennett 5:30
Oh. 

Susan Miller 5:30
saw was called Golden Hollows, and I lived it over book. Really worked hard on it. So that that was the very first book. 

Rich Bennett 5:43
Do you still have it? 

Susan Miller 5:45
I do still have it. Yeah. I never completed it because I was very obsessive at that point. And every. 

Rich Bennett 5:52
Right? 

Susan Miller 5:53
To be right. I had to learn to put that aside later or to actually complete things. But the first book I published was a psychology book, and that book was called The Shame Experience, and it was a derivative of my Ph.D. dissertation. I had gotten a doctorate in psychology, still very interested in writing, but 

Rich Bennett 6:22
Mm 

Susan Miller 6:22
I was 

Rich Bennett 6:22
hmm. 

Susan Miller 6:22
working in psychology and I had written a dissertation, which you have to do. And actually my dad said to me, Well, Sue, why don't you see if you can get this published as a book? And I had not even considered that. But I thought, okay, why not try it? So 

Rich Bennett 6:43
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 6:43
I sent the the dissertation and a proposal to a few publishers. 

Rich Bennett 6:50
Mm 

Susan Miller 6:51
And 

Rich Bennett 6:51
hmm. 

Susan Miller 6:51
I remember one day I got a letter back from a man named Baxter Venables. I still remember his name because it was unusual name. It sounded like Dickens or something. And he said, Hey, you're going about this all wrong. I used to be a psychology editor. I'm going to give you some tips, which was very generous of him. Right. 

Rich Bennett 7:17
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 7:17
And he actually sent me in the direction of a particular publisher that was putting out a monograph series. And I think they were interested in young professionals, which that was my category at the time. So I sent the manuscript off to them, and that was actually the first psychology book that started me on that road. 

Rich Bennett 7:42
All right. Any plans in going back and finishing that first book? We started when you were 12? 

Susan Miller 7:49
No, I don't think so. I do have some other, 

on years ago. 

Rich Bennett 7:57
Right. 

Susan Miller 7:58
A lot of I had a period when I wrote quite a few children's picture books and. 

Rich Bennett 8:04
Oh. 

Susan Miller 8:05
Some of those I, I might go back to sometime. I kind of like to draw and paint. So sometimes I think maybe I could illustrate them myself. But 

Rich Bennett 8:16
Do 

Susan Miller 8:16
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 8:16
you know what the funny thing is, though, with children's books? And I've noticed this because we've had a lot of children's authors on. And when I read those books, 

it seems like it deals a lot with mental health because if you. 

My thing is, if if as an adult, if I can read a children's book and I'm learning something from it, then I know the children are going to. And a lot of these authors I've had on and you read their children, these children post, it's like, Wow, I forgot all about this person. So this is great. 

Susan Miller 8:56
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:57
Yeah, I think he. I think you need to do them. 

Susan Miller 8:59
And there are some wonderful children's books. 

Rich Bennett 9:03
All. 

Susan Miller 9:03
Take from what you think? I wish I'd read this when I was a kid. 

Rich Bennett 9:08
There are. 

Michelle Hayes 9:09
Yeah, I actually just use that in one of my meetings this morning as a, as a marketing. And I was like, Hey, um, so remember this children's book 

demonstrated this? And unfortunately with this client, we kind of, you know, in those beginning phases where we have to hold each other's hand a little bit sometimes and work on processes. And I'm like, you know, I really like children's books because you can read. 

Rich Bennett 9:39
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 9:41
Communication in anger and frustration. Very much 

Rich Bennett 9:44
Yup. 

Michelle Hayes 9:45
Sometimes as. 

Susan Miller 9:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 9:50
How many psychology books have you written? The five. 

Susan Miller 9:54
Yes, it is five. And actually one of those was the book I think you mentioned for teenagers. And young adult called When Parents Have Problems and. 

Rich Bennett 10:08
Right. 

Susan Miller 10:09
That one was a book that some some of my thinking 

derive from a young girl I was working with at the time. 

Rich Bennett 10:21
Mm hmm. 

Susan Miller 10:21
But I also was influenced by my own experience growing up in the sense that there are certain things that I wished older people had said to me or addressed with me. It might have helped me a great deal navigating getting some rough things in my family because I had a parent with a serious mental illness and addiction problems and. That kind of situation creates so many deep questions, you know, for a young. In this book, I started out, as I said, because I was working with this young girl. I can't really remember her exact circumstances because it was so long ago. But I remember the feeling that when I was able to help her make sense of some of the parental behavior, she was dealing with and realizing helped her realize that things that were being said to her were really not about her. They were more about the speaker, her, you know, the the parent who had a had a problem, a deep problem. It was so freeing to her. And so that that was the road. I was traveling at that point, trying to speak directly to kids who might be somewhat trapped in those situations. 

Rich Bennett 11:57
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 11:57
So what? In those situations, I know being a mom who's not with my son's father there, there is definitely conflict sometimes. You know, my husband and I, we are not perfect. I mean, rich. I know you and your wife are, but not all. 

You know, in our first year marriage, we started a business and my son's kind of between, you know, my husband, me and his father, you know, as the lovely other part of that triangle. What what I definitely feel like there's advice for, you know, the three parents in this situation. What advice would you give those young people in that situation, like one small bit that they could hold on to? Because they definitely see that that's there having been in that situation myself. What advice would you give them just to kind of help them through that? 

Susan Miller 12:50
Yeah. You know, it's hard for me to speak to that particular situation. So since I don't know too much about it, but I think in this book that I was writing, there were certain things that would be common threads. And one was that a child is entitled to certain things. And I'm not talking about riches and, you know. 

Special privileges, but that you are entitled to take care of yourself, to be taken care of in certain ways, and you're also entitled to take care of yourself. So that might mean now, this may not at all apply in the situation you're describing, Michel, but there's homes where, you know, a child is made to feel that just taking care of themselves, like 

quiet space and a time to do their homework or time to spend with friends and not have to be babysitting their siblings all the time, that that's selfish and that it's wrong that in some way the parent really comes first at all times. So they're, you know, just trying to talk to kids about the fact that you're wanting to take care of yourself and be cared for in some ways is not selfishness that is normal, a normal impulse that we all have. And if your parents can't respect that for some reason that's really their problem, it impacts you, impinges on you. But it's not your fault. 

Michelle Hayes 14:40
Gotcha. 

Rich Bennett 14:44
It actually was. And that was your the book, your time out was when parents have problems, Right? 

Susan Miller 14:52
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:55
to start writing young adult fiction? jump. I would. 

Susan Miller 15:00
Yeah. You know, this book that I wrote for young adults? I don't know when I was writing it, if I knew it was for young adults, I just. Story to tell. I don't necessarily think so much about the audience. So when I. 

Rich Bennett 15:18
Right. 

Susan Miller 15:19
And I finished it and I was handing it off to this editor who I'd worked with before, and she said to me, Okay, what questions do you want me to address or think about when I'm reading your manuscript? And I said to her, Who is it for? You know? For young adults or is it for adults? And so she came back to me and she said it's for young adults. So that was actually the point of decision. I knew the book was going to have young adults at its center with respect characters, but actually other books that I've written that were definitely for older adults had young people at their center to characterize. So I think. 

Rich Bennett 16:07
Right. 

Susan Miller 16:08
Drawn to that represent characters in that age range. 

But in this case, you know, this particular story started with an experience of a person 

in my clinical work as a therapist. Quite a few years ago. And it actually was a young man, although the character evolved, you know, got transmuted 

Rich Bennett 16:41
Right. 

Susan Miller 16:41
lots of ways. But what I remember from that experience was that it was a person who was just starting college and had lost a parent at a very early age and wasn't thinking much about the loss of that parent, but was having a lot of difficulty in school and getting used to. 

Rich Bennett 17:08
Right. 

Susan Miller 17:09
New environment. Big change for anyone to leave home, you know, whether you're going to the military or to college or just to a different city, it could be a pretty monumental change. And one particular thing that I remember was in this case, the person telling me with a lot of embarrassment after a long time that he liked to wear women's clothes sometimes. And, you know, now something like that is gotten all very politicized and all kinds. 

Rich Bennett 17:46
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 17:47
Things got into it. But at the time what struck me was, Oh, here's somebody who lost the only woman in their life at a very tender age. Really can't remember that person. I wonder what it feels like to him. Pullen. Is that his way to find his mother and some way to be, you know, because we we retain tactile memories a lot, I think. 

Rich Bennett 18:19
Right. 

Susan Miller 18:19
Early on fabrics and. So. So I remember having those kinds of thoughts and then that gradually, you know, some time later when I was starting down this road of writing the current book, which is actually about a young woman who has lost a mother, although not 

Rich Bennett 18:43
Leslie. 

Susan Miller 18:44
yet Leslie, she lost her mother and died at a very young age, but a couple of years before college. But so got me just thinking through 

some of the challenges of starting a new phase in your life as a young person. When there's something that's very shaky, unsettled from the previous phase. And of course, that applies to lots of people. You know, who bring along empty or they bring along complicated baggage and they have to deal with the new. But at the same time are trying to deal with the old. And sometimes they're really aware of those earlier. Unanswered questions, and sometimes they're not at all aware, so they just sort of act it out one way or another. that was the of basic set up for this particular story. 

Rich Bennett 19:46
This was published, was it this year? 

Susan Miller 19:49
Yeah, it just didn't. 

Rich Bennett 19:50
Or a couple of years ago. 

Susan Miller 19:51
Late October. 

Michelle Hayes 19:53
October. 

Susan Miller 19:53
Here. Brand new. 

Rich Bennett 19:55
Oh, wow. Okay. So with you, especially with your psychology work and writing psychology books, how much of that were you able to incorporate into this novel? I would think because you're the expert at The Priory Came pretty easy, didn't it? 

Susan Miller 20:16
Some things I think do come easier. You know, when you're a psychologist, your day to day life is people's stories. 

Rich Bennett 20:28
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 20:29
Here are so many stories and they do just become part of you in some way, you know, part of your life experience. And in addition to hearing people's stories, you also get to just observe people and see the way. Like the way here I am using my hands the way people speak with their hands. The way they put together their sentences, the way they avoid things, or, you know, what they're like when they walk into a new room that they haven't been in before. So all those little details are really details of character that when you're then writing fiction, well, those are the kind of details you want to pay attention to because that they are the details that create a character and. 

Rich Bennett 21:22
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 21:23
Gives them life. So there is an. 

Rich Bennett 21:26
So. 

Susan Miller 21:26
And the intersection between the two kinds of activity. 

Rich Bennett 21:30
Okay. How long did this one actually take you to write? 

Susan Miller 21:35
I never am sure. It's always longer than I think it was, 

I'll say two or three years, but it could be longer. And sometimes I'm working on more than one thing at once. You know, it's some. 

Rich Bennett 21:50
Right. 

Susan Miller 21:51
So there's some overlap. 

Rich Bennett 21:53
All right. So this I have a funny feeling you're you're going to blow me wave to answer 

it. But I would think it'd be kind of hard because with the work that you do and you're talking to all these different people, and then you're going home, you're writing this novel, how many times or did you actually just start writing down and realize, Oh, wait a minute, I'm not writing about Leslie anymore? Writing about somebody else I just had a session with, and that doesn't belong in this story. 

Susan Miller 22:28
Oh. 

Rich Bennett 22:29
Happen and I mean. 

Susan Miller 22:32
I. 

Rich Bennett 22:33
My mind will be going like, Oh God, okay, I got to keep this. 

Susan Miller 22:38
I mean, so sometimes. 

You do have to be really careful. You know, sometimes details do creep in. Often they'll be details from my own life. Like, for example, with this book, my best friend from when I was a little kid is still part of my life. And she read the book and she said, okay, I found some Easter eggs hiding here in there from our, you know, grade school experience. And. 

Rich Bennett 23:10
See, Leslie was reading that first book you wrote. 

Susan Miller 23:15
Well, I'm like, Yeah, you got those, All right. Nobody else on earth would have known. You know what I was. Where that came from. Except that friend. So. So. But that's fine. You know, that's from your own life. But if you're bringing important things from other people's lives, maybe clients. Of course, you have to be really conscious and careful because you don't want to 

privacy. Confidentiality. Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 23:51
You're listening in on the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

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4109413499 and tell them Rich Bennett said you. So how did you come up with the title, by the way? I love you. I love the title. 

Susan Miller 25:09
Well, I'm glad you like it, I. not come up with it, actually. 

The editor and publisher were pushing for the title. We had a lot of discussion 

Rich Bennett 25:22
Oh. 

Susan Miller 25:23
about it. I wasn't so sure about it, but I trust them with certain kinds of things quite a lot. So in the end. 

Rich Bennett 25:32
Right. 

Susan Miller 25:33
I told them I'm going to make my best case for some other titles. And in the end, if I don't convince you, then we'll go with your title. So that was what happened. I didn't persuade them and we went with their title. And so because that. I think a title a title is different from an interior of a book. It's more like a cover and it has a marketing component to it. And so some of that. I trust the publisher with. 

Rich Bennett 26:07
And the thing is, I mean, years ago they would always tell you never judge a book by its cover. 

Nowadays, that's not not the case. Who was it that actually did the cover for the book? Because I love the cover. 

Susan Miller 26:22
The publisher has their cover design. 

Rich Bennett 26:25
Okay. 

Susan Miller 26:26
They all put forward some ideas, but usually after a lot of conversation. So I think they had. So the designer had some ideas that I thought were going in the wrong direction. I gave them a few ideas and then they came back with a few choices and we went with this one. So 

Rich Bennett 26:47
So you did 

Susan Miller 26:48
yeah. 

Rich Bennett 26:48
have some input, though. 

Susan Miller 26:50
I definitely had some in. Which is very nice. It's not always the case. 

Rich Bennett 26:55
Right. 

Susan Miller 26:57
But yeah, I had some input there. Certain types of coverage I really don't like kind. 

Garish, screaming colors that are a little too. They look a little to, 

know, digitally produced. 

Rich Bennett 27:15
Okay. 

Susan Miller 27:15
Don't have much of a personal feel. So I let them know some of what I do and don't like. With respect to our and truthfully, the cover is always a fun thing for me because you, you know, as a writer, you spend so much time just with the words. So I just the words on the page. And to be able to shift 

to a different medium suddenly to have something visual seems like such a pleasure. You're after all that time immersed with just typed, you know, fonts and. 

Rich Bennett 27:57
this, what was your 

this or not, but when you're writing this, which I'm sure you read it afterwards, too, it just makes sense. But what was your favorite part of the book that you especially that you think listeners that reader are going to be like, okay, now I can understand. 

Susan Miller 28:19
Well, I don't know offhand. I'm sure there are some definitely some parts I like better than others. 

Rich Bennett 28:28
Right. 

Susan Miller 28:29
But probably toward the end, you know, when you're starting to. Bring a lot of disparate threads together and pour in. The character also has a more devout voice, so she's starting to understand herself better because she does a lot of hiding from her emotions. Know which is where the title makes sense because she can't say directly, I love you. It's like, Oh, by the way, you know, I love you kind of or something. Like I had suggested to the publisher, maybe we should call it I Love You. Kind of like. That would have been more her voice. But. 

Rich Bennett 29:14
Sue. That's the sequel. 

Susan Miller 29:18
Well, that might be the prequel. 

Rich Bennett 29:20
Or the prequel. Yeah. 

Susan Miller 29:22
But at the end, you know, she has. She's owning more of herself, more honest with her feelings so she can articulate her experience. Not super well because she's still very young, but better. You know, so I think I enjoy that aspect. 

Rich Bennett 29:42
What what would make readers fall in love with Leslie, by the way? 

Michelle Hayes 29:48
Gosh. 

Susan Miller 29:50
Well, some might and some might not. I actually have some good friends where the the husband and wife read it, and the wife loved the character in the the husband in life character too much, I think, because she she was kind of snarky, you know, and she's sarcastic and he thought she was just kind of me now, too. To my mind, she's just adolescent, you know, She is protecting herself in a way that adolescents do, and they're can be mean, but they're also kind of funny and they're mean. And sometimes the way they're snarky. 

So I hope that a lot of characters would. There are a lot of people who are just identify with her. Journey. And she also has a lot of interesting friends. And so the friends are people that readers might also identify with. 

Rich Bennett 30:53
So with Leslie. I just love characters, you know, the way especially the way that authors portray them. And then even like ten years down the road, how? What they wrote about has changed. In other words, like. 

Susan Miller 31:12
Oh. 

Rich Bennett 31:12
Behind it originally has changed. Just like a song or art. 

Susan Miller 31:16
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:16
Can have different how it can have different meaning. 

Susan Miller 31:19
In different. In different context. 

Rich Bennett 31:22
But with all the books you wrote, the psychology books you wrote, and now this being a young adult novel, do you think that people reading it will also learn from it like they did your psychology books? 

Susan Miller 31:37
There is a kind of learning that I think takes place with fiction, but it's tends to be a different kind of learning. You know, it's not so conceptual, like, okay, here's. 

Rich Bennett 31:50
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 31:50
Good idea. It might be more like in this case, there's a young woman who's 

trying to at a certain point in the story, have the courage to speak out about something that she's developed, a passion about. She's very protective. It has to. 

Rich Bennett 32:14
Mm hmm. 

Susan Miller 32:15
The environmental theme. So, you know, she's trying to challenge herself to. Can I put aside my nervousness and go ahead and speak up on behalf of this cause? So I think there's a kind of when when people read, say, a young person reading the book, well, this is a common kind of challenge for a young person. You know, do I let my 

anxiety about something brand new stop me or do I 

have enough confidence in myself to go forward? So I think when you read fiction, sometimes you trying on roles and thinking, okay, here's this character making this choice, you know, is this something I can do or do I want to be like the character who is hiding in the back of the room, know? 

Rich Bennett 33:13
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 33:14
So. 

Rich Bennett 33:14
Oh, no. 

So in Leslie's relationships, especially with her roommate and her one friend, are actually central to her growth. So what do you hope that readers will take away from the way these relationships evolve? 

Susan Miller 33:35
I mean, she certainly is. 

know, she's she's working out sort of with the new relationships. 

Rich Bennett 33:45
Mm hmm. 

Susan Miller 33:45
The things that hadn't been settled for her with her earlier relationship, especially with the mother she lost her mother. And then when she tries to remember her mother, her memory is kind of spotty, but it's also unsettling to her because there are ways in which she's not really sure that her mother loves her. She also has a lot of guilty feelings that she comes to recognize because as her mother was getting sick, she was Leslie was in this, you know, testy adolescent kind of mode. And she was pretty uncaring toward the mother. And then that was the end of their relationship. So she's left 

Rich Bennett 34:37
Right. 

Susan Miller 34:38
with a lot of guilt. So in her relationships with her friends. She's trying. I mean, not she doesn't go about doing this deliberately, but she starts to see ways in which she can be caring, in ways in which she's not caring. And, you know, so she has to kind of look at herself. The friendships become a kind of mirror where you see, oh, this is this is how I am. This is my characteristic. Do I like it or do I want to change? 

Rich Bennett 35:14
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 35:17
No. 

Rich Bennett 35:19
So with this, especially with with Leslie. 

plans on possibly making this a series and following in Leslie's life after college, especially if especially if your readers get very attached to Leslie and want to find out goes. 

Michelle Hayes 35:41
Very attached to characters, but. 

Susan Miller 35:43
Okay, That's interesting. You know, I've never done that. Before with a book. I mean, never took those characters forward. But I know a lot of writers do. In fact, I was even listening to interview with a writer who was taking forward the characters of another writer who had died and sort of bequeathed his characters to this friend. So it was a miss mystery series. 

Rich Bennett 36:16
Oh, wow. 

Susan Miller 36:17
So that was an interesting challenge for sure. But I don't know, maybe I have to think about that. 

Rich Bennett 36:24
I think a lot of people are going to be interested in what happens with Leslie. Just saying, Sue, one of the things that authors always have problems with and I love the thought of Michelle especially loves to talk to authors. 

Michelle Hayes 36:36
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 36:39
How hard is it because some publishing companies don't do it. Other, you know, some publishing companies do the marketing of the book. How hard is that or easy has it been so far? 

Susan Miller 36:53
The marketing is always hard. 

know, I think my aim is that to get the book into enough hands that it has a chance. You want enough people to read it that if they like it, they'll. Mention it to someone. Pass it along. 

Rich Bennett 37:16
Right. 

Susan Miller 37:17
Write a review. If they don't, they don't. But at least get it out there enough that it has a chance to get a readership 

in the public. 

Rich Bennett 37:30
Publishing company actually do any for. 

Susan Miller 37:33
They do. They've done some things, 

do. 

Ask me to do certain things. Yeah. Yeah. Including talking with people on podcasts. Right. So and that's been you know, I've never done that with any previous books. It's pretty much a new form of communication or relatively new. So this is all completely new to me. 

Rich Bennett 38:01
Well, how did you find out about pod magic. 

Susan Miller 38:04
That was through the publisher. I 

Rich Bennett 38:06
Oh. 

Susan Miller 38:06
would I would not have known. So the publisher and I had published a previous book with them two years ago, a novel called A Beautiful Land. And there was nothing no mention of it then. So I think this is a new 

I don't know when Padma had started, but for this for my publisher, it's a new. 

Rich Bennett 38:29
Right. 

Susan Miller 38:30
Connection. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 38:32
There is a fast growing connection to. 

Susan Miller 38:34
Yeah. It's been terrific. 

Rich Bennett 38:37
Well, before I turn it over to Michelle, I want you to remember this website. Go to it and check it out. Especially since your book came out in October. It's called New Books Network Dotcom. It's several podcasts, but you look for you look for the young adult genre. Listen to the podcast there and you can find the hosted everything in picture book to it, and they'll probably ask you to come on as well. 

Susan Miller 39:02
Okay. Say that name. 

Rich Bennett 39:03
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 39:04
Rich. 

Rich Bennett 39:05
Its 

Susan Miller 39:05
You. 

Rich Bennett 39:05
new books network dot com. 

Susan Miller 39:07
Fox Network. Okay, great. 

Rich Bennett 39:09
A professor named Marshall Poo started it. And it's it's a great network for new authors. Originally, it was mainly like, well, it would be perfect for your psychology books because that's mainly what it was for original. But now he's opened it up and it's. Yeah. For new releases and everything, so. 

Susan Miller 39:30
Nice. 

Rich Bennett 39:32
I'm turning it over to you, Michelle. 

Michelle Hayes 39:35
That shows everyone. 

Rich Bennett 39:39
Well, I know you always have marketing. 

Susan Miller 39:40
I'm not scared. 

Michelle Hayes 39:42
I have all kinds of fun questions. First of all, I love your site. It's so pretty and I love that it features like a picture of you on a lot of pages. 

Susan Miller 39:52
Oh. 

Michelle Hayes 39:53
Great job. That's something that we and I know you've probably, you know, had to work on this in psychology. And there's probably some amazing psychology explanation. But humanizing people for small businesses and authors. Really hard. 

Susan Miller 40:10
Oh, yeah. That does seem super important. 

Michelle Hayes 40:14
It is. And just I just wanted to tell you, I, I love your your website. It's so pretty on. 

Absolutely. I just I feel like I critique people so much I have to call out pretty things to. 

Susan Miller 40:29
I like to with the website also give an idea of the physical environment that you're in. So might in this case be my cycling to the office or a bit of nature that is part of your world. So there's a person, but a person that's rooted a little bit in a setting to. 

Michelle Hayes 40:50
It's comfortable. It's familiar. Like you want to feel. It makes sense. I love it. 

Rich Bennett 40:57
And actually tell everybody what the website is. 

Susan Miller 41:00
It is Susan Beth Miller that can. 

Rich Bennett 41:04
Easy to remember. 

Michelle Hayes 41:06
It is also on her Facebook page. 

I have it up. 

Rich Bennett 41:13
Look at that. Okay. 

Susan Miller 41:14
Oh, okay. Yeah, There's a Facebook page. 

Michelle Hayes 41:19
Yep. Yeah. 

So your Facebook pages that that mention everything by you or is that the the publishing company I mean. 

Susan Miller 41:31
Pretty much by me. Occasionally I'll see, like, say with the website, something will have changed that I will think. I don't think I did that. And. And then I. That the publisher also has access and could do a little bit. But mostly they they kind of leave it to me. 

Michelle Hayes 41:53
Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, cool. 

Susan Miller 41:57
You know, they give you your marching. 

Michelle Hayes 41:58
I'm just. 

Susan Miller 41:59
It's your Amazon. 

Michelle Hayes 42:01
Oh. 

Susan Miller 42:02
Up and get your Instagram and so on. 

Rich Bennett 42:08
They're actually four for your book. Did you do any book trailers? 

Susan Miller 42:14
No, 

Rich Bennett 42:14
Did your publisher even tell you about the 

Susan Miller 42:16
no. 

Rich Bennett 42:16
book trailer? 

Susan Miller 42:17
I know what those are, but no, nobody did. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 42:22
Wow. Okay. 

Michelle Hayes 42:23
Those are so cool. I didn't even know they existed until a couple of weeks ago. Rich. 

Rich Bennett 42:29
Oh, yeah, It's. It's. I think they're great. 

Susan Miller 42:33
Where now? Where are you? 

Michelle Hayes 42:34
Super. 

Rich Bennett 42:37
Well, a lot of people will put them on. A lot of authors will put them on their website. But the other thing is to like for promotional. When you're I've had authors that will even know they've been on. They'll send me their trailer and it's a great teaser for me to post about what's coming up. 

Susan Miller 42:58
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 42:58
It's it's just it's another selling selling tool 

Susan Miller 43:02
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 43:02
for. 

Susan Miller 43:03
Oh, maybe. 

Rich Bennett 43:03
The book The end of. 

Susan Miller 43:04
I should look into that. 

Rich Bennett 43:06
Oh, the first time I've ever seen one. I believe it was a local author here. I believe it was Danny Petrie who was putting them out as I. This is brilliant. My first thought was that the book's going to be a movie. That was my first thought. Because 

Susan Miller 43:25
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 43:25
it was. Like you were watching the trailer to a movie. 

Susan Miller 43:28
Yeah. Yeah. Well. And. Maybe someone else that he was in the movie business got that same idea of watching it. And maybe 

Rich Bennett 43:37
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 43:38
that's how a movie could get started. 

Rich Bennett 43:40
Bring Leslie to life. 

Susan Miller 43:43
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 43:45
I like that slogan. That's really cute. 

Susan Miller 43:48
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 43:48
Unless lastly die. 

Susan Miller 43:50
There 

Michelle Hayes 43:50
So. 

Susan Miller 43:50
are. Theatrical moments so she could be very. 

Michelle Hayes 43:54
There you go. That's perfect. More drama and sarcasm, the better, right? Young adults 

Susan Miller 44:01
And 

Michelle Hayes 44:01
we 

Susan Miller 44:01
employ 

Michelle Hayes 44:01
like. 

Susan Miller 44:02
some employ some teenager actors. 

Michelle Hayes 44:06
I guess I'm not a young adult anymore. Oh, Rich, that hurt. 

Susan Miller 44:13
Well, you know, a lot of books that cross over from young adult to adult. So there's no reason older people and I have friends who love to read things that 

categorize young adult. Fact, I 

Rich Bennett 44:30
I 

Susan Miller 44:30
read 

Rich Bennett 44:30
was going to 

Susan Miller 44:30
one 

Rich Bennett 44:30
say wasn't. 

Susan Miller 44:31
recently. That was wonderful. 

Rich Bennett 44:34
Wasn't Twilight. Consider young adult. 

Michelle Hayes 44:36
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 44:37
Look how many adults read that and love it. 

Michelle Hayes 44:40
I was a young adult when I read it. 

Rich Bennett 44:42
So very important. All you listening when when you purchased the book, actually any of the books, whether it be by the way, I love you when parents have problems what's the other one? Indigo rose right. And a. 

Susan Miller 44:58
Yeah, a beautiful land. And then a few more psychology books in there. 

Rich Bennett 45:04
Okay, So when you purchase them and read them, two things. Number one, make sure you leave a full review talking about why you loved it. Number two, if you really loved it that much, buy a copy for someone else as well that you know will love it and tell them to do the same thing. So before I get to my last question, is there anything you would like to add? 

Susan Miller 45:28
That is always the question. That's difficult. 

Rich Bennett 45:33
Oh, I need an 

Susan Miller 45:34
I. 

Rich Bennett 45:34
answer to a difficult question 

Susan Miller 45:35
Oh, 

Rich Bennett 45:35
yet. 

Susan Miller 45:35
you didn't ask me, okay. I don't know. I just. I like to encourage people to, you know, do something that for yourself this year, that's just something that you wanted to do. And you tell yourself, Oh, I'm not good at that, or I don't have time for that. So try and give yourself that gift of give it a try. Make some space for it in your life. 

Rich Bennett 46:02
Now is the hard question. 

What is next for Susan Beth Miller? 

Susan Miller 46:09
Oh that's not is hard from. I am working. They're novel. 

So so that that's something I'm doing now. I actually have a small writing group and just before the podcast, I was meeting with that group and getting some feedback on the current novel. So that that'll be one thing coming up. But not for quite a while. It's a slow process. 

Rich Bennett 46:36
All right. So it is not my last question, because I am glad you mention that, because I think that's something very important to explain to people, especially aspiring writers, even writers, you know, current authors. 

Susan Miller 46:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:49
The importance of a writing group. 

Susan Miller 46:52
Oh, a writing group can be wonderful. I mean, you can get meaningful feedback, certainly, but also it just keeps you working, you know, It keeps you because you got to produce something for the group. So you produce something for the group. So and in the group I have now, I've been in different kinds of groups, but they, they keep me working and they just give me enough encouragement to kind of stay on the road because 

Rich Bennett 47:23
Keep going. 

Susan Miller 47:23
it it is if you're writing a novel, certainly even shorter pieces, it's a it's a long road. 

Rich Bennett 47:31
Yeah. 

Susan Miller 47:32
And just to be able to that is one piece of advice to people. Just put one foot in front of the other. You know, write something today, don't don't set your sights so high that you defeat yourself with it all. Overly high expectations if you if you just do a little something. Enough times, you will get there. 

Rich Bennett 47:56
Sue, thank you so much. It's been an honor, Michel. Thank you. And 

Michelle Hayes 48:01
Always. 

Rich Bennett 48:01
so I will let you know when we're going to be doing that virtual mental free Read it, lips. 

Michelle Hayes 48:07
Words are hard. 

Rich Bennett 48:09
The Virtual Mental Health Roundtable. 

Susan Miller 48:12
Oh, that would be a pleasure. Rich, thank you so much. And thank you, Michelle. 

Michelle Hayes 48:17
Absolutely. It's a pleasure having you. 

Rich Bennett 48:19
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoy today's episode and learn something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with Rich Bennett. Com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care. Be kind and keep the conversations going.