Teaching Emotional Literacy Through Nicole Oke’s Penny Panda Adventures

Rich Bennett 0:00
Thanks for joining the conversation, where we explore the stories and experience that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett, joined by my lovely co-host today, Michelle Hayes. And today I am. We are thrilled to welcome Nicole Oke. Nicole is the talented author behind the beloved children's book series featuring Penny Panda, including titles like Penny Panda and The Gift of Positive Possibility and Penny Panda, India Motion Ninjas. Her books follow The Adventures of Izzy, guided by her trusty companion, Penny Panda, as they navigate the complex world of emotions, self-confidence and friendship. Nicole's work has been praised by readers and educators alike for its positive impact on emotional literacy for kids. Today, she'll be sharing the inspiration behind her stories, her creative process, and why fostering emotional intelligence in children is so essential. How are you doing, Nicole? 

Nicole Oke 0:59
I'm good. Thank you for having me. 

Rich Bennett 1:02
Oh, my pleasure. I want to dive right in because some of the children's books. Can teach adults so much. 

Nicole Oke 1:12
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 1:12
Anyway, when you sent me Penny Panda and the emotion images and I read it, I was like, and I read it again this morning. For those of you listening, we're recording on November six. 

And, you know, there's just emotional emotions running crazy today. So I let's start with the journey that brought Penny Panda to life. What inspired you to write about Izzy and Penny Panda's adventures in emotional intelligence and friendship? 

Nicole Oke 1:44
Yeah, I was inspired to start writing about four years ago. I was going through a lot of things in my personal life and at work, and it was just very challenging emotionally. So I delved into the self-help world and emotional intelligence and social emotional learning. And the more that I grasped, the more concepts that I learned, the more skills that I put into my tool belt. I just kept looking at my two little girls who at the time were about four and a half and one. And I just kept. 

Rich Bennett 2:19
Oh, wow. 

Nicole Oke 2:20
Yeah, they were young and they just kept thinking. Here I am in my late thirties, finally figuring this out. What could I do to, like, start teaching them this at an early age so that they're not in the same situation? 

Rich Bennett 2:36
Right. 

Nicole Oke 2:36
If you can learn to understand and regulate your emotions, it can save you so much unnecessary pain and suffering. And so that was kind of my my inspiration. And I actually before I started writing, I just went on Amazon, like most of us do. And I thought, well, let me look for books for my kids on the topic. And I kept 

Rich Bennett 2:57
Right. 

Nicole Oke 2:57
writing books that were like, Emotions are good. It's a good thing. Like embrace them. But I wanted more. I kept 

Rich Bennett 3:06
Mm hmm. 

Nicole Oke 3:06
waiting for that book that was like, Your emotions are good and here's how you can engage in them and like control them and start to regulate them. And I didn't find it at the time. And so that's when I was like, Well, there's obviously something missing in the market. So I decided 

Rich Bennett 3:25
Right. 

Nicole Oke 3:26
I would give a shot at writing my own children's book. 

Rich Bennett 3:31
Have you written any other books beforehand or this is your first. 

Nicole Oke 3:35
Yep. Penny Panda in the ghetto Possibility was my first. And then Penny. Penny in the emotion. Angels was the second. I've done a little bit of, like, article writing 

Rich Bennett 3:44
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 3:45
moves like that, but I've. I haven't really been published anywhere big. It's all been 

Rich Bennett 3:49
Right. 

Nicole Oke 3:49
just like for local blogs and things like that. This was my first attempt at really, you know, publishing something and putting it out into the world. 

Rich Bennett 4:00
It's still a big difference from writing articles in a children's book, isn't it? 

Nicole Oke 4:03
Yes. Yes. Very big difference. 

Rich Bennett 4:07
And with a children's book, too, you have to have an illustrator. So how hard was it to find an illustrator? 

Nicole Oke 4:14
It actually was fairly easy to find one. 

Rich Bennett 4:19
Oh, wow. 

Nicole Oke 4:19
Yeah. And I get asked this question a lot. I found my illustrator on Facebook, but I work. He does an amazing job of promoting himself. So if you go on to Facebook and you search for like children's book illustrators, there are a ton of groups that you can join. And then he would post maybe weekly or at least biweekly all of his. 

Rich Bennett 4:44
Right? 

Nicole Oke 4:45
You know, stuff from the past, current stuff he's working on. And so I was really I'm a visual person, so the illustrations 

Rich Bennett 4:53
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 4:53
were really important to me. So I kind of narrowed it down. I found about three people that I really liked, and then I finally narrowed it down and reached out to. His name's Richard Hoyt. He's actually from New Zealand and 

Rich Bennett 5:06
Mm 

Nicole Oke 5:06
I. 

Rich Bennett 5:06
hmm. 

Nicole Oke 5:07
I loved his style and I'm so thankful that I chose him because he really has been more like a partner on this journey 

Rich Bennett 5:17
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 5:17
than just someone that's working for me. You know what I mean? 

Rich Bennett 5:21
That's good. He's a very good illustrator. 

Nicole Oke 5:23
Thank you. Young. 

Rich Bennett 5:24
Very. 

Nicole Oke 5:24
So talented. 

Rich Bennett 5:27
Actually, is there really a Penny Panda or is that something that you made up? 

Nicole Oke 5:32
I made it up. Yup. 

Rich Bennett 5:34
You made it up. All right. So because I see some children's authors do this. Any plans on making, like, a. Stuffed Penny Panda to go along with the book and even the emotion ninjas. 

Nicole Oke 5:47
I'm hoping, at least for the stuffed panda. I haven't thought about the emotion ninjas yet, but I'm hoping someday to be able to make a stuffed panda That looks very much like the illustration. 

Rich Bennett 5:59
Yeah, I think they'd be great. 

Nicole Oke 6:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:00
I want the emotion ninjas to, I think a little weird they call Fluffy. 

Nicole Oke 6:04
Right? Yes, please. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:06
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. You could. A children's author Preneur Breaking the Bank. I will be great. 

Nicole Oke 6:16
Yeah, that's a great idea. 

Rich Bennett 6:18
So. All right. Where did the name Izzy come from? 

Nicole Oke 6:22
Izzy is inspired by my oldest daughter, Isabelle. 

Rich Bennett 6:27
Okay. I had a funny feeling. That's probably why by. 

Nicole Oke 6:31
Yep. Yep. And we. 

Rich Bennett 6:33
What? 

Nicole Oke 6:33
Short. 

Rich Bennett 6:35
So when she saw the first book, what was her thoughts? I mean, while she got she was, what, four and a half then? 

Nicole Oke 6:42
Yeah. By the time I was published, she was probably closer to almost six because it took a while. 

Rich Bennett 6:48
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 6:49
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:50
All right. So be honest, Nicole, does she go into school and say, look, I'm on a book, It's me. 

Nicole Oke 6:57
She actually had very mixed reactions to it. The the first book that I did, I went in and I read to her classroom when it came out, 

Rich Bennett 7:06
Mm hmm. 

Nicole Oke 7:06
when it was published and at first she was very much like that, like I'm on the book, the books that I. Like she felt really cool and special and she had heard the story hundreds of times, so she knew exactly 

Rich Bennett 7:18
Right. 

Nicole Oke 7:18
what. And yet, as I was reading it to her class, she would interrupt me and say, That never actually happened, though I never actually did that. Like, I was just like, is it? It's it's a made up story and you know it like you've heard it before. It was a really interesting experience. 

Rich Bennett 7:40
Now, does she actually take it in and read to kids? 

Nicole Oke 7:43
Not yet. But she. Yeah, She's getting to the point. She's in third grade this year, so she's getting to 

Rich Bennett 7:49
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 7:49
where she could. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:52
Actually. Is it in the store? In the in the stores? Of course it's in stores. Is it in the schools? 

Nicole Oke 7:58
It's in a couple of schools and I'm working to get it into more. I've started 

Rich Bennett 8:01
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 8:02
locally, so I'm from Boise, Idaho, so I'm starting in. 

Rich Bennett 8:05
Right. 

Nicole Oke 8:06
Trying to get it into the schools there. And then I have a friend who actually helped me write some social emotional learning curriculum to go along with the. 

Rich Bennett 8:13
Mm hmm. 

Nicole Oke 8:14
So I'm trying to use that to really promote getting Penny Panda and the emotion ninjas into the schools, because then there's this resource for teachers like pre-made lesson plans by someone whose job is to create national standard curriculum. And 

Rich Bennett 8:29
Right. 

Nicole Oke 8:30
so I'm hoping that will help get it into the schools. 

Rich Bennett 8:34
And and actually emotion, emotional intelligence isn't always a topic we think of when it comes to children's books. 

Nicole Oke 8:42
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 8:43
So what role do you actually think emotional literacy plays in a child's overall development? And why did you feel it was important to tackle these themes early on? 

Nicole Oke 8:55
I think it's so important for our kids to start to understand their emotions at a young age, because, you know, in generations and generations past, they feel like we kind of had this sense of like, you know, don't don't show your emotions, hide your emotions. Always be strong, always be firm. And I think it's created this sense inside of us where we can't ever really express what we're feeling. And I think that in and of itself can cause a lot of harm to individuals. So with my books, I wanted to encourage kids to be able to identify their emotions, but then also really learn that the emotions don't control them if they feel that way. Right. Even as adults, I think we often feel like our emotions are in charge. But if we can really learn the skills and practice them, like practice on the easy stuff, when stuff gets hard, those skill sets will be embedded and then it will be so much easier to navigate those situations. 

Rich Bennett 9:59
Right. Hmm. So. Indeed. Because of with this. And this is something I've never understood with children's authors, 

this is why I still haven't had an illustrator and author on together. Because I just loved the know the process. So the creative process for you. How do you actually develop each story and how do you balance the educational messages with engaging storytelling? And then your illustrate? Or do you talk? Because I've just always been amazed by that, how the illustrator can put all that into, well, the illustrations, I guess you'd say. 

Michelle Hayes 10:45
How did the. 

Rich Bennett 10:46
But at this point, yeah. But at the same time, there's you you. I guess the illustrator has to pick out what is going to go with certain words, right. So can you walk us through that? Because that just always baffled me. 

Nicole Oke 11:00
Yeah, sure. So I I'll be honest, I was baffled. The first book I wrote to you, I had no idea. 

I was like, I don't know. Which is why I was so lucky to end up with Rich because he has so much experience That 

Rich Bennett 11:14
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 11:14
really kind of helped guide me through that first book and that I've learned so much between book one and book two. And there were there were so many rules about children's books I didn't even understand. But 

Rich Bennett 11:26
Really? 

Nicole Oke 11:26
starting with book one, it was 

it was a little bit more I didn't think as much about the entertainment aspect as I did in the second book. And so when I was writing it. It was very much about the educational piece and the lesson. And thankfully, I hired a professional editor and then working with Rich. We had conversations about how can we take this important message and make sure that it comes through in the story, but that the kids are also still engaged. 

Rich Bennett 12:05
Right. 

Nicole Oke 12:05
Yeah. And so there's a scene in the first book where Izzy and Penny are talking about they're talking about the possibility game and how important it is to be able to see all the different possibilities in the situation. And the text is. I don't want to say it's boring, but it's very like informational. And so what Ritch did is he came back to me when I sent him the story, and he's like, I love this story and I want to bring it to life in the illustrations. So here are my ideas. And he decided to take one scene where they're just talking about this, and he had them jumping around on the bed. He's like, Kids love to jump on the bed with their stuffed animals. So the picture is really 

Rich Bennett 12:47
Oh, yeah. 

Nicole Oke 12:47
entertaining and engaging. And then the story is really informational. And then he took another scene and he was like, Can you just add like half a sentence here that says as she poured a pretend cup of tea? And so I added that in. And then that set the stage for them to be sitting and having this fun little Tea Party while they were talking about the emotions. So it wasn't just an illustration opinion. Is he going back and forth and talking? 

Rich Bennett 13:14
Right. 

Nicole Oke 13:14
Even though it was a lot of dialogue, he took it and he really brought it to life. 

Rich Bennett 13:19
Wow. Yeah, because, I mean, look at the illustrations. It just. It falls in sync with the words perfectly. 

Nicole Oke 13:29
Yes. He's so good at it. And he he's very professional and he's all about making sure that the writers that he works with are happy. So we went through. 

Rich Bennett 13:38
There. 

Nicole Oke 13:39
Maybe four different iterations of what the emotion ninjas would look like before 

Rich Bennett 13:44
Mm hmm. 

Nicole Oke 13:44
we finally decided on these ones. So first we kind of had started with like things that didn't look quite as human because we kind of 

Rich Bennett 13:51
Right. 

Nicole Oke 13:52
wanted to like, dehumanize the emotions a little bit, but that just kind of fell off. We tried emotions that looked like pandas to kind of play off like the Penny Panda idea of her being there to support Izzy. And those just looked a little funny, too. And finally, he came up with this last bunch and sent it to me. And I was like, okay, that's it. Like, I think think these will fit. They still look, you know, human and engaging, but they also look fun and playful. 

Rich Bennett 14:19
Yeah. They don't look like you're. I mean, because a lot of times a lot of people would think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. 

Nicole Oke 14:28
Right? 

Rich Bennett 14:29
Just give me an idea. But in the face a little bit. But there. No, the rest of the character does not look like that at all. 

Nicole Oke 14:36
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:37
I love it. So how hard how hard was it for you? Because we actually were you self-published or did you go through a publisher? 

Nicole Oke 14:45
I self-published. 

Rich Bennett 14:46
Oh. So what's the hardest part between writing and getting the book out there? 

Michelle Hayes 14:52
And what led to that self-publish decision. 

Nicole Oke 14:56
Yeah. So that I would say I'll start with what led to the self decision. I was impatient to get the story out there and there's so much. I did a lot of research. I took a couple of classes on the difference between self-publishing and traditional publishing and to go the traditional route. There are a lot of steps. You have to find an agent who's interested. Then the agent has to find a publisher who's interested. And then I heard a lot about how if you go traditionally published, they essentially that publishing company then owns the story. And so you may go in with what you think is your final manuscript and they can make changes, and then they choose the illustrator based off of what they think will go best with the story. And so there was a lot of creative elements that I didn't want to give up control of. It was still tempting because obviously if you have a traditional publisher, you have a little it's a little bit easier to get into bookstores and into classrooms and stuff like that. The other part that kind of swayed me was now in traditional publishing, you still, as the author, have to do the bulk of the marketing unless you are like James Patterson or J.K. Rowling or, you know, some a famous author. You still have to build that audience, create that connection and market your book. And that was really kind of the deciding factor for me. One, I really didn't want to wait to find an agent and to find a publisher that was take a very long time. And then when I found out I had to do all the marketing anyways, I was like, Well, why am I going to pay a publisher? Or, you know, work with a publisher who takes the bulk of the profit? And yet I still end up doing the bulk of the marketing. And so that's what led me to the self-published route. 

I think it's too early to tell if that was the right choice or not, but I've enjoyed the journey, that's for sure. And then as far as like the most challenging part, I would say with the first book, the most challenging part was I didn't know what I was getting into. Like, I, I thought that I knew a lot about writing. I thought I knew about you know, all the different elements. And the first book is 1200, around 1200 words. That's pretty long for a children's book. The second 

Rich Bennett 17:35
Wow. 

Nicole Oke 17:36
book is 600 Words, which is more around the traditional length of a children's book. So I learned that. I was like, okay, I need to be more concise. You know, there are some exceptions. And in the first book, I don't know how much I could have really condensed it down just because. 

Rich Bennett 17:55
Right. 

Nicole Oke 17:56
Correct. But that does, you know, makes a big difference, figuring out how many pages you want it to be. Like, I had no idea that the average is 32 pages for a children's book, you know, for. 

Rich Bennett 18:10
I didn't hurt. 

Nicole Oke 18:11
From title page to the end. That's that's the most common number. And it's because they print four pages on a giant sheet of paper when they do the printing. So, yeah. So 32 pages has become kind of the standard. So like my first book I think is 30 pages. And so I've learned a lot of different things back and forth in my I've switched editors, my first editor, she was fabulous, but she didn't specialize in children's books. 

Rich Bennett 18:42
Ooh. 

Nicole Oke 18:42
Yeah, which was kind of a lesson I learned going on. I was. And when I finally found an an editor that specializes in children's books, I could kind of tell the difference there. You know, the first editor, she was great, but she was 

not as aggressive at cutting words. You know, and the children's book editor was more like, okay, cut this, because that can be an illustration. But this you can show it in the pictures or less. And she was really good at helping me to be like, okay, your age range, you know, is 5 to 8 or nine. So let's. This word maybe is too advanced. Let's make sure that we're bringing it down to this level. So having someone on your team that really is that engrossed in this specific genre I think is really important. 

Rich Bennett 19:32
I never thought about that part. Well, I love that. I never even thought of a bet, especially the amount of words and the pages. But the fact that you could take words out because let the illustration show it. You can't do that in a novel because the words have to paint the picture. 

Nicole Oke 19:52
Yes, exactly. 

Rich Bennett 19:53
Where as with a children's book, it's like Rod Stewart said or saying. Every picture tells a story. 

Nicole Oke 19:59
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 20:01
I'm showing my age now or not. It's. 

Nicole Oke 20:06
And I would kind of come from, you know, writing the articles, writing for adults where. 

Rich Bennett 20:10
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 20:11
Have to set that scene. You have to you know, you you describe everything. And moving into children's books, it was you know, you don't have to set up the scene because the scene is there. They see the picture. 

Rich Bennett 20:25
Was that the biggest challenge for you when you when you decided to write the children's books, the I guess, the, you know, transforming from writing the articles to that? 

Nicole Oke 20:35
Yeah, I would say so that. 

Rich Bennett 20:38
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 20:38
And I think my ego got a little in the way, you know, because I was like, Oh, I am a good writer. And it and anyone who's ever written anything, whether it be, you know, articles or books or. I think we get to a point where we think it's so good and then you send it to the editor and it comes back with all the red marks, or you send it to critique partners and it comes back with all the red marks. That was really a challenge for me too. Thankfully, I'm in enough critique groups now that I've gotten to the point where I don't take it personally and I can really see the value in the feedback and I can kind of identify. Like at first I thought I had to take all the feedback and now I realize I take what works for me and then I don't have to take what doesn't work because you're never going to write a book that pleases everyone no matter what you do. 

Rich Bennett 21:27
They look at it as constructive criticism. 

Nicole Oke 21:29
Yes. Yep. 

Rich Bennett 21:30
Which upset. 

Michelle Hayes 21:31
It's important that you know. I have to take it. I know as a marketer. In my world, I work with my husband and knowing that I don't have to take his feedback is really empowering. But I also. 

Nicole Oke 21:45
Right. 

Michelle Hayes 21:46
Too many men. Don't look at you like that, Rich. I also send it to a few of my crew readers and say, Hey, could you read this? Make sure you know this graphic looks correct, make sure this copy looks correct and you don't have to take every one's feedback as they say it. But maybe, you know, they had a point there and you just. 

Nicole Oke 22:07
Yep. 

Michelle Hayes 22:08
We get a little not maybe as much as they said, but just a little bit. And I think that's. That's a great point to make is you don't always have to take that criticism, but sometimes you might want to look at it. 

Rich Bennett 22:19
With the marketing action. I want to go back a minute because you kept saying lessons. You've learned these lessons. Where did you go to to to learn all this stuff? 

Nicole Oke 22:29
So I did a lot of Googling and read a lot of articles, and then I took a couple of courses. I joined a children's book coaching program, which was really helpful. And yeah, it's called Children's Book Mastery. That was really educational for me. And then I started doing some courses online. And I'm so sorry. My youngest is homesick and she just decided to join 

Rich Bennett 22:55
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 22:55
the interview. 

Rich Bennett 22:58
Well, hello there. 

Nicole Oke 22:59
Do you want to say my. 

Rich Bennett 23:01
What's her name? 

Nicole Oke 23:02
This is Mattie. 

Rich Bennett 23:04
Maddie. Maddie. 

Nicole Oke 23:06
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 23:07
There's a little girl next door to me. Whose name is Maddie. How are you? 

Nicole Oke 23:11
How are you, Mattie? Well, she's doing pretty good. She had her tonsils taken out yesterday. So it's a bit of a rough day. 

Rich Bennett 23:21
All right. So still a lot of Jell-O and ice cream. 

Nicole Oke 23:24
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 23:25
Oh, yeah. Maddie, I had my tonsils taken out when I was about your age, too. And, boy, did I love that yellow. 

Nicole Oke 23:35
Right. So good. She's a big fan of the ice cream. 

Rich Bennett 23:39
What's your favorite ice cream? 

Nicole Oke 23:42
Vanilla. Vanilla. 

Rich Bennett 23:45
No way. I had vanilla this morning. 

Nicole Oke 23:49
Nice. 

Rich Bennett 23:51
Oh, I love vanilla ice cream. 

Nicole Oke 23:53
Well, go ask Daddy. I bet he'll give you some ice cream. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 23:57
Oh, she's adorable. 

Nicole Oke 23:58
Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 24:01
I'm surprised you didn't look at you. Say, is that Siena? I should have put my red hat on. I didn't even think about it. 

Nicole Oke 24:10
She would have loved it. She still would have gone. Karim Nasser. 

Rich Bennett 24:14
Now, I didn't realize there were, 

like, courses in there. Well, I guess, I mean, stupid. There should be courses for it. But you said there's also you found a lot from creative groups, right? 

Nicole Oke 24:29
Yeah. So I found a local writers group here in Boise 

Rich Bennett 24:32
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 24:32
that I joined, and so that was really good for getting critique and feedback because it's a mixture of I think there's one or two other people that dabble in children's books, but then there's like historical romance and then there's historical fiction and like really all sorts of different genres. So to be part of that has been really cool. I've learned a lot from them. And then just there's all sorts of webinars out there to you have to sign up. Email list, which sometimes can be a tad overwhelming. But there's marketing, webinars, there's all sorts of resources once you start looking. 

Rich Bennett 25:13
Huh? Maybe I'll look into becoming a children's author instead of a regular author. I just it's 

amazing to me and Michelle and I were talking about this, already mentioned it, but it's amazing to me how children's books, I think, have evolved throughout the years to where it's also teaching adults. Or let me rephrase that adults can learn from. 

Nicole Oke 25:39
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 25:40
And at trial over the years. I don't care how old you are. There's a good book for everybody. So I want to actually I want to get to the marketing part. And I know Michelle is going to have a lot of questions here for that, especially since you have to do your own marketing. What's the toughest thing that you're facing right now when it comes to marketing and getting more books out there? 

Nicole Oke 26:06
I think the hardest part for me lately has been that it's just such a saturated market. 

Rich Bennett 26:13
Really? 

Nicole Oke 26:14
Yeah. And it feels like every time I turn on the television, a new celebrity has written a children's book. Like the other day. His name is Escaping Me but the Fonz from Happy Days. 

Rich Bennett 26:27
Henry Winkler one. 

Nicole Oke 26:28
Yes, he 

Rich Bennett 26:30
Wow. 

Nicole Oke 26:30
he's written, I think, more than one. Reese Witherspoon has a children's book. Colin Kaepernick has a children's book like I mean, the list is just Jimmy Kimmel has a children's book. There's so many people. Yeah. And it's. 

Rich Bennett 26:46
I had no idea. 

Nicole Oke 26:47
Right. And it's cool. But at the same time, it's like here I feel like I am, you know, working so hard to build an audience, 

Rich Bennett 26:55
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 26:55
to get noticed, to get my name out there. And then I have to compete with people that aren't even traditional authors that are, you know, people by race. Witherspoon's book, just because it's Reese Witherspoon and Kristen Bell. Like, how do you, as an unknown, compete with that? 

Rich Bennett 27:18
Huh? 

Nicole Oke 27:19
So that's when in hard. 

Michelle Hayes 27:20
Yeah. The next question would be how do you compete with that and what sources did you have to help you since, you know, obviously you've done your own marketing at this point? You've, you know, kind of learned along the way. What did you start with? How did you noticed? Are there others? Some things? 

Nicole Oke 27:39
I had no idea where to start when I started with my first book. And I would say that the bulk of my initial sales were to family and friends, which was fine, but that doesn't really build your readership. And so that was kind of a hard lesson. Like, I think logically, I knew the whole idea of like, you will write it and they will buy it is is not true. But I think I kind of still had this hope of like if I just produce this product that's good enough that people like, it will get out there. And it's it's just been really interesting to watch because I have a lot of really good reviews on both books, but getting it. No, on that. Getting it getting the name out to people has been really challenging. And so I used social media. I started I have an email list now. I wish I had started that before I published my first book because I think that would have been really good. But with my second book, I had the email list and I continuing to build that. And I, you know, I'm on Facebook, Twitter are not Twitter, sorry, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. And I am not very good at Tik Tok yet. So that is something I'm trying to improve. 

But I think that just overall we're so inundated all the time with bye bye bye bye bye. That to really figure out how to get your product noticed can be a challenge. 

Rich Bennett 29:15
Okay. I know. I know. You've been doing podcasts. And God, if Alex, if you're listening to this, don't get mad at me. Have you looked into the new books Network? New books, Network XCOM. 

Nicole Oke 29:29
I have not. 

Rich Bennett 29:30
Check that out, because what they I don't know if they have a children's section, but it's worth looking into. 

Nicole Oke 29:35
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 29:36
But Marshall Poe, who started that. It's basically for authors to go on and there's like a mess load of podcasts on there, which is strictly for authors. 

Nicole Oke 29:48
Oh, awesome. 

Rich Bennett 29:50
Find your find your genre and then find a show you like in pitch to it. 

Nicole Oke 29:54
Yeah, I will definitely turn up. 

Rich Bennett 29:57
Yeah. And what you already know about pod magic. Get on as many podcast as you can because. 

It's free. It's free. It's free marketing. So why not? Michelle, any tips for her on how to how to market children's books? 

Michelle Hayes 30:15
I think the biggest thing you need to find why the parents want to buy your books because. They're not going to, you know, put their their payment information in there. That's not going. 

Nicole Oke 30:29
Right. Right. 

Michelle Hayes 30:30
You really need to find. And I think a big one is, you know, as Rich said, you as a adult can learn from these books. 

I also think social media is a great thing if you use it properly. 

Beware of over posting. We've seen a lot of clients of ours go from over posting I mean four or five posts a day to shares posts multiple people posting, things like that. We pulled them back to about three or four a week, which is what we suggest in our firm, and they actually see an uptick in their. 

Nicole Oke 31:11
Interesting. 

Michelle Hayes 31:11
In their comments in any type of interaction with that post, because and it's something that a lot of people refer to as either ad fatigue. If you're running a bunch of ads, they'll get really tired of them and they'll stop paying attention and they'll also just post fatigue in general when you're scrolling on your first, like on your phone or on social media. I stopped scrolling my social media because I do it for work. I don't want to do it for fun. 

Nicole Oke 31:39
Right. 

Michelle Hayes 31:40
But when you're scrolling, if you do scroll. Pay attention to what you're seeing and who you just scroll by. Because the ones you're scrolling by, they're posting multiple times a day the same content multiple times a week, and just that fresh content. And if you start to see people just kind of stop interacting, once you've had those kind of steps, change up what you're posting. She's so afraid to change what they're posting. If you're posting like super fun, really animated content, that might be too much. And as as people. I love to be creative. My son is 13 and still loves to be creative. But I love to be creative. And honestly, my husband's my co-founder and he's had to pull me back a few times on a few clients and been like, Dad, don't. 

Nicole Oke 32:34
Little too much. 

Michelle Hayes 32:35
So much. Pull it back. Take away three things. That old adage When you get dressed in the morning, take off an accessory. Yeah, I've had to take off a few. Just don't be afraid to change up. So many people are afraid to and so many people are so, you know, claws into. This is my identity on Facebook. 

Nicole Oke 32:57
Right. 

Michelle Hayes 32:59
But your app that's not your identity is really not. Change it up. You'll see a huge uptick in followers and everything else. Just change a little bit and it can help. 

Nicole Oke 33:14
Yeah, I will try that for sure. I've been trying to kind of alternate between book stuff and like emotional learning or social emotional learning. 

Yeah, but I'll try to get creative. 

Michelle Hayes 33:28
How much have you posted to your face? 

Nicole Oke 33:31
A fair amount. Probably not as much as I could. The doing the videos sometimes seems a little overwhelming. 

But I know it's important. So. Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 33:47
Especially. 

Nicole Oke 33:47
We're working on it. 

Michelle Hayes 33:49
Yeah, yeah. Show your beautiful smile people want to see and make that human connection. That's something that's coming back as a trend. Not don't. 

Nicole Oke 33:58
Good. 

Michelle Hayes 34:00
Yeah, when COVID hit, everybody kind of, you know, went behind the screen, went behind the mask. And now that human connection is becoming more important. What? 

Rich Bennett 34:09
You are your brand. 

Nicole Oke 34:11
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 34:12
What's the ages for these books? 

Nicole Oke 34:15
So the age range is anywhere from probably 4 to 9 or ten, but I'd say the. Range is that kind of 5 to 8. So I have, 

Rich Bennett 34:24
I. 

Nicole Oke 34:25
yeah, four year olds. They enjoy it. The concepts sometimes are a little bit harder to grasp. The stories keep them entertained. And then around that 910 age, they are kind of over the picture books. 

Rich Bennett 34:39
Okay. So some of them are basically still daycare age. 

Nicole Oke 34:42
Mm hmm. Yep. 

Rich Bennett 34:45
Are you a member of your local chamber? 

Nicole Oke 34:48
I am not 

Rich Bennett 34:50
I'm going to I'm going to give you an idea. I'm going to steal this from another children's author that I had on day Journey. So, Debbie, don't get mad at me. I would look into joining your chamber and how many daycares are in your area. 

Nicole Oke 35:04
ill. 

Rich Bennett 35:04
Do you know? A lot. Perfect. 

Go to the chamber and show me your books. And this is when you pitch your books to the business businesses in the chamber and ask them to sponsor your books. In other words, they can buy several books for you to give to a local daycare or like here, Emeril, we have. And correct me if I'm wrong, Michel. Title one Elementary Schools. 

Michelle Hayes 35:37
Yes, we have them. 

Rich Bennett 35:38
Yeah. Yeah. Where kids have problems reading. Or if they would like to donate several books to do schools too. And then if they would and then, you know, see if the the daycare or the schools will allow you to come read. So this way the businesses are buying your books. They're donating them to the daycare or the school. It's also being seen by the kids. Kids are telling mom and dad how much they love the book. Now, mom and dad want to buy the book. And those of you listening, when you purchase these books, you're the holidays are coming up. But it doesn't even need to be the holidays any any time. Any time when you purchase them for your kids, purchase them for your grandkids, your nieces, your nephews, your friends. Because you I mean, even for yourself, because you're going to learn a lot from them. But something very important. Tell everybody where they can find the books and your website. 

Nicole Oke 36:39
Yes. So my website is Nicole Oke and Oke is oc ee author dot com. And the wonderful thing about having a unique last name like Oke spelled Okey is if you Google Nicole Oke, it's pretty much all me 

Rich Bennett 36:55
Right. 

Nicole Oke 36:55
anybody else really out there with that name. So that is nice. And then of course, you know, for those that just want to get on and easily order from Amazon or Barnes and Noble, it's available pretty much anywhere books are sold. You can search for Penny Panda and it should come up. 

Rich Bennett 37:12
All right. So what is next for Izzy and Penny Panda? 

Nicole Oke 37:15
So I've got a couple of different projects in the works. The first one is it's a little bit tougher topic, so I'm doing it in support of my day job. So I work in wildland fire and we often lose individuals in fire. We have people that pass away from accidents and injuries on the fire line. And I've been to a couple of classes and I've interacted with people who have lost loved ones. And the just this idea of children having to go through that kind of a situation and knowing that it's it's kind of a unique situation. And just how that can feel so lonely. I thought if I could create a book that at least could let them know that they're not alone, that would be a step in the right direction. So I'm working on Penny Panda and the day Daddy didn't come home. And yeah, so it is about death. In the book is his dad is a wildland firefighter and he is injured and killed during a wildland fire. And so it's kind of the story of. You know, it starts with obviously how she loves her dad and the work that we do in wildfire to stay safe, how we you know, we train and we practice and we have all the protective gear and we have policies in place to keep us safe. But sometimes bad things happen. And so it goes into the day that they come to the door to talk to Izzy's mom and to Izzy about what happened. And then when she learns that her dad has died, she goes to Penny. And so they just kind of talk through what grief is, how hard it can be, how it affects everyone differently, that you you may cry, you may scream, you may want to pretend that it never happened, that all of these reactions are okay to have. And that that it's going to you know, it can take a long time. I tried to move on from something like that and just kind of having that discussion. And with this book in particular, I've sent it already to a couple of different therapists and counselors just to make sure that the verbiage 

Rich Bennett 39:52
Ma. 

Nicole Oke 39:52
yeah, I want to make sure that the verbiage I'm using, that the the conversations they're having are in support of the additional support that kids could get. 

Rich Bennett 40:02
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 40:03
And so then it ends with to kind of bring it around to a little bit of a happier note. It it ends with showing Izzy growing up and showing like, you know, in the beginning she was playing soccer, waiting for her dad to come home. So we show her a little bit older at a soccer game. Like her mom is there, like with Penny in her purse. And then there's like the empty seat where dad would have been. And, you know, they show her, like at high school graduation and like, kind of looking up, like, pointing to the sky, like I did it, Dad. And then my dad passed before I got married. And so when I got married, I put a picture of him in a little frame and put it on my bouquet. So as an ode to my own dad there, there will be that scene in there as well. So just to show kids that, you know, you never forget them, they're never gone. But. But life does keep going. And that 

Rich Bennett 40:59
Right. 

Nicole Oke 40:59
you. Still have good, good times and good experiences even after such a tragedy. 

Rich Bennett 41:07
You definitely have to have a stuffed penny planned for when that book comes out because the kids are grown way too hog. 

Nicole Oke 41:12
Right. 

Rich Bennett 41:14
Without a doubt. Oh, God, You got me that. Oh, I can't wait. I can't. That's going to be something that is desperately, desperately needed, because I can. Only when it comes to children's books and dealing with grief, I can only think of one other children's book. I think that I've seen where it deals with grief. 

Nicole Oke 41:37
Yeah. And the past two books I've done Kickstarters to kind of promote them in the beginning and every Kickstarters had the option to donate a book to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. Which is a foundation that is a nonprofit outside of the government that supports families who have lost wildland firefighters. And so this book would be one that I would really hope that we could get a lot of copies to them for free to get donated 

Rich Bennett 42:06
Right. 

Nicole Oke 42:06
to them for when kids do experience this. And they've only found one other book that they feel is good enough to even give to kids in that situation. 

Rich Bennett 42:17
Really? 

Nicole Oke 42:18
Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know how hard they're looking or how often because there's always new stuff coming out. 

Rich Bennett 42:23
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 42:24
But they were like, We would love a book that was a little bit closer to our reality and what our kids are dealing with. 

Rich Bennett 42:32
You said you have two projects you're working on now. 

Nicole Oke 42:34
Yes. So that's the first one. The second one. 

Rich Bennett 42:37
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 42:37
Much happier. It's called Penny Tanna and the Fairness Fairy. So. 

Rich Bennett 42:43
Fairness fairy. 

Nicole Oke 42:44
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 42:45
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 42:46
So I like to try to bring in different characters into each book. 

Rich Bennett 42:49
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 42:50
And my oldest daughter. Is sorry my little ones back. My oldest daughter is eight years old and we are struggling with the concept of fair. Okay. Sorry, guys. She struggles with the concept of what's fair. And so we've been talking a lot about how fair doesn't always mean equal. So, like, for example, I mean, my daughter, my youngest daughter right now is a great example. She just had her tonsils out yesterday. And so she gets ice cream whenever she wants. And my oldest daughter is like, that's not fair. And I'm like, well, it's not the same. You don't both get the same amount of ice cream. But that doesn't mean it's not fair, because Maddie had her tonsils taken out. She needs this to really help, like, soothe some of that pain. So it is fair that she gets ice cream, you know, two, three, four bowls, and you only get one. And sometimes, you know, that doesn't always go over well. But then I remind her, remember when we were at the water park and you got to go on that really cool slide and your sister didn't. Well, that that wasn't equal either. But it was fair because you were at the safety height requirement. You're old enough to go. You can swim well enough to go and your sister can't. So she didn't get to go. So it's not equal, but it is fair. And so the next book kind of tries to grasp on to that idea. It's it's much more fun. It happens at a carnival If he goes with one of her best friends and they play one of the carnival games and her friend wins and Izzy doesn't. And so she goes to Penny is like, it's just not fair. She gets this stuffy, this prize. And I don't get anything. And so Penny introduces the fairness fairy, who helps Izzy to imagine what the world would be like if everything had to be equal and fair. 

Rich Bennett 44:48
Right. 

Nicole Oke 44:49
And so they go through three different scenarios where they talk about like, imagine that you and your friend wanted to get a treat and she only wanted an ice cream cone and you wanted to sundae. But to be fair, the Fairness fairy says, Hey, you both have to have ice cream cones. Well, that's not really fair because you both could have gotten what you wanted. But if we're making sure everything is equal, then that means that you have to have the same thing. And then another situation is kind of a similar example with a roller coaster ride that her sister can't go. So the fairness of versus, well, sorry, you can't go if your sister can't go, because that's not fair. And and then there's one where she, like, enters the art show at the fair and everyone gets a blue ribbon because you can't just have one person, even if their skills are superior. It's so it's just trying to help kids kind of grasp this idea that there isn't always equal. Oh. 

Rich Bennett 45:47
I love that. 

Michelle Hayes 45:48
Great concept. 

Rich Bennett 45:50
And where do you expect the needs to be published? 

Nicole Oke 45:53
I'm hoping to have one of them out next year. The hardest part is as amazing as Rich is as an illustrator, the illustrations are pretty expensive. 

Rich Bennett 46:04
Right. 

Nicole Oke 46:06
And so I have to have a little time in between to build back that income and be able to pay for the illustrations. So that's kind of the only thing holding me back right now. 

Rich Bennett 46:17
All right. So those of you listening, did you hear that she has a build that didn't come back up. That means. Go and purchase the box. 

Nicole Oke 46:26
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 46:26
And if you like my idea, be a sponsor and sponsor them everywhere. 

Nicole Oke 46:30
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 46:30
And home to the day care. 

Nicole Oke 46:32
And the more that the more books I sell, all of that money goes right back into the next one. 

Rich Bennett 46:37
Yeah. 

Michelle Hayes 46:38
Awesome. 

Rich Bennett 46:39
I love this. Well, you know, you have to come back. Going again for two reasons. When the other books come out. But I would love to talk to you about your job as well. 

Nicole Oke 46:50
Oh, sure. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:51
Because to me, that is. And you're. So you work there. Are you actually a firefighter as well? 

Nicole Oke 47:00
I was once upon a time. 

Rich Bennett 47:03
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 47:03
Now I work primarily in support. I do training, and then I help in dispatch. 

Rich Bennett 47:09
Okay. Yeah. God, I could sit there for a while and talk to you about that. Michelle, do you have any more questions for Nicole? 

Michelle Hayes 47:17
Do. 

Rich Bennett 47:18
Hi, Maddie. 

Michelle Hayes 47:19
Matty. 

Nicole Oke 47:22
That's the only bad thing about working from home is sometimes you have unexpected. 

Michelle Hayes 47:27
Now your guide. 

Rich Bennett 47:27
Oh. 

Michelle Hayes 47:29
Last one we did. Brett saw I had a cat that was like, right here because I had three cats, and my cats usually make an appearance, but they left me alone today. 

Rich Bennett 47:42
You don't have any more questions. 

Michelle Hayes 47:43
I think I'm gonna. 

Rich Bennett 47:46
Nicole, is there anything a way minute before I ask you, Nicole? Matt, is there anything you would like to say to everybody listening? 

Nicole Oke 47:53
Can you say how? Tell them how much you love Penny Panda. 

Well, now I think she's a little shy. A little shy. 

Rich Bennett 48:03
Little shy and probably still got a sore throat. 

Nicole Oke 48:06
I will say I have taken books to her daycare and a couple of other places and every time I take them in, she's like, But it's my book. I was like, No, honey, this copy is for the center. And she's like, But I want it. It's my book. 

Rich Bennett 48:20
Is that where the idea of the fairness fairy came in? 

Nicole Oke 48:23
A little bit. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 48:25
Okay. 

Nicole Oke 48:25
All. 

Rich Bennett 48:27
Nicole, is there anything you would like to add? 

Nicole Oke 48:30
I think the last thing I would say is for folks that are listening, I have some freebies. I have some freebies on my website. One of the lesson plans for teachers is up there to grab for free, as well as a ninja mindfulness activity book for kids. That kind of goes along with the second book. So check out Nicole Oak, author dot com. Get your freebies. Sign up for my mailing list. I like to send out a lot of emotional intelligence stuff as well as information about upcoming books or. 

Rich Bennett 49:05
So my my last question for you is, what is the key message that you hope readers, both kids and adults, take away from the Many Panda series? 

Nicole Oke 49:20
My main message, I think, would be that we're all human. We all have emotions, and that's okay. But we can all continually work on ourselves to grow and to learn, to embrace those emotions, to learn how to embrace and regulate and work through them, and to just start being kind to each other because we're all going through something. 

Rich Bennett 49:46
Yeah. 

Nicole Oke 49:46
Oh, Mom. 

Rich Bennett 49:47
Exactly. 

Nicole Oke 49:49
Instead of going steady. 

Rich Bennett 49:53
God, I love her. 

Michelle Hayes 49:54
She's. 

Nicole Oke 49:56
Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 49:57
I think you have to have Santa Clause in one of the Penny Panda books. 

Nicole Oke 50:00
Yes. Oh, that's a good idea. I actually well, actually, in the first book, there's one picture of Santa at the end. They have a they go through all these different possibilities in the book. And one of the possibilities is that Santa came down. And when he gave a left penny for Izzy, one of his elves left one of her presents so much that he stole it. So there's a little spread of Santa and Elf coming back up through the chimney. 

Rich Bennett 50:24
URLs are tricky. 

Nicole Oke 50:26
Right. 

Rich Bennett 50:27
Never trust them. 

Nicole Oke 50:29
Right. 

Michelle Hayes 50:29
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 50:30
Nicole, I want to thank you so much, Michel. Thank you. Those of you listening again, make sure that you go to. Coal oak. That's okay. E Author Tor.com purchased the books. Lever for review, sponsor some books, purchased some, send them out to the daycares, elementary schools, wherever, and get them for your friends. Nicole I cannot wait for the next one. And Michelle, next time I see you, remind me to bring Penny Pendine the emotion, the emotion ninjas with me so you can read it. 

Michelle Hayes 51:07
Absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 51:09
You'll love it. 

Michelle Hayes 51:10
Ten year old will to. 

Rich Bennett 51:11
Yeah, if. If I care. Although I have a funny feeling my daughter's going to steal it from me and take it to the daycare when she's working. 

Nicole Oke 51:21
Also. 

Rich Bennett 51:22
Yeah. Thanks, Nicole. 

Nicole Oke 51:24
Yes. Thank you so much.